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Eternal-Spark — Humantity's Experiments: USSR
Published: 2005-04-30 02:43:17 +0000 UTC; Views: 7704; Favourites: 77; Downloads: 300
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Description
Like the Nazi Failure one ([link] ), here's one for all those people who proudly make Communist-positive desktops. Sure, communism is still around in places, but the USSR had basically the best chance to survive, and died from within. A failure, in other words.Related content
Comments: 69
Lets face it, the strong survive. rich or poor, whale or fish, lion or deer, that is the nature of life. It has always been like that and it always will. Something was greater than communism, something was greater than the dinosaurs and something will come greater than capitalism. Living in USA and being a capitalist I can see how much good I can do if I had more money. Look at Bill Gates.. people hate him but he gives more $$$ to people than people realize. Its crazy. I also see the negative sides of capitalism with hospitals working as money machines, not to save lives but to make profit. I see our 2 main political parties not caring about illegal immigration because on the outside - the bigger the tax base the bigger the profit for the US. Lots of things going wrong here.
My wife is Russian and I hear her stories of Soviet times.. How it was great. People genuinely helped each other during those times. Cities were clean, no illegals, no garbage on television, well educated, people were proud.
Look, if we were a socialist world then we wouldnt be on devart right now. we wouldnt have computers. no soviet could afford a computer. now in moscow people are working their butts off to make life better for themselves. they know full well now they cant rely on government to do it for them. its refreshing to see. but my wife tells me things about soviet times i wouldnt like... news media being one... she never heard about russian planes crashing or anything. she thought america was her friend, not enemy like the US was preaching to children about russia. she didnt even know there was a cold war. if she wanted to moce someplace, she had to ASK her government if she could move and then in 2 or 3 years they would tell her where she is moving to! can you imagine? you only do well under communism if you know people. its about who you know. thats gay. thats like the old boys school BS. watch the movie "East-West" [link] about russians in france moving back to russia after WW2. Its right to the point. If you spoke french, and someone overheard you and didnt like you? they report you to the government as a spy and youd be taken away and never seen from again. is that what you really want? do you really want communism? i know capitalism and democracy isnt perfect but id take it any day over what my wife grew up in.
hopefully the US will find a happy medium becuase US is going downhill quick. i cant walk my dog anymore in my city becuase of crime problems from foreigners (and my city i grew up in was perfect!), my wife complains there is no need to learn english here becuase no one enforces the use of english as the national language. im sure my wife can give a huge list of things she doesnt like about america, but the freedoms to do things is nice, she admits it no problem.
i feel the people complaining about the capitalism here in america today (like me) is becuase they never grew up in america when it was all about apple pie and baseball games. when things were good. now we have to political parties very similar to each other (in actions, not beliefs) and all they are doing is trying to get control of power while the rest of us slide off into nowhere-land.
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Well.....you know, I live and was born in Hungary.... you don't have to tell me what was it like.
As I said already, I'm not crying back the soviet union and soforth. It's time to take action, and it's the way forward. Why do you think there aren't neo-communists or neo-socialists, like there are neo-nazis? Because it wasn't about that in these countries, the ideology hasn't changed. You should take away the ideology itself and the revolutions which went wrong. We now know about all the faliures and mistakes, as i pointed it out in my previous comment.
We aren't animals to have this competition between us. What happens with the loser? Tt'll die? We can not let that.
What your country is now, is not as shit as it will be soon. Your economy cannot compete without expanding the markets, your country will attack and enslave many countries. Remember the British Imperium? That was a capitalist country with a constitutional monarchy as a government. That's what a capitalist country looks like. What you are living now, is a mere bubble, ready to burst. Your country has pushed up the living standard, so that you couldnt complain, just watch your baseball game and shut up about politics. Now, it's at the point when it cannot support this, that's why life is getting worse there.
No matter what party you elect for government, they are just puppets of capitalism. What your companies need will be done. As it is now, even a complete ape can run your country, he's just a mere puppet, and someone to spit down if you have a problem.
Eventhough bourgeois democracy should be the most adaptive type of government, it isn't, because what you, the average citizen want, is confronted with what the ruling class wants. If it's something that the ruling class doesn't want, its bound to be faliure.
About life here in the second world, back then: for industial, developed countries like us, it was a cut back, from what we could've done in a capitalist system. But, for backward countries like Russia, Ukraine, Romania, Belorussia, etc, this was and still is a better alternative to capitalism. Even with this crap stalinism thing going on, life may have been more livable. Look at today's Russia... Putin is a puppet of the huge oil companies and the oligarchs controlling the economy. It's a state mafia basically. I'm not saying that there werent corruptional cases in the old days, but Russia wasn't so backward in work, economy and so forth.
What I want, is the real democracy, where everyone is equal (in juditical and living standard meaning), freedom for everyone, and the most fraternity as possible. I live in a relatively small town, of 160 000 residents, but almost no one know no one! We are mere drones, wanting a better life, but don't get shit, we don't have time for culture, we just watch some lame-ass show on TV, which shows rich people, depicting richness as a real easy thing, this makes the drone think "I could be richer, I'm just too lame to get rich...". This is nonsense. Everyone should have a clean, simple lifestyle, if you ask yourself, the more stuff you have isn't equal with your happiness and good-feeling.
The basic democratic rights should be kept, and strengthened EVERYWHERE. You now think the USA by spreading "democracy", the invaded country will have the same demo as you in the home country... Bullcrap. What your country wants is for example Augusto Pinochet in Chile. You made him a dictator. Because he was enough of a bestard to sell the country in one, no fear about people complaining in factories, of about pollution to the government. Your country just wants countries to exploit, and you let some of the people there (the bourgeois) get rich, so you can show in movies, how good life there is, you give them power to say that their country is as good as it gets. When on the contrary, not.
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You sound angry man. Comments like "You now thank the USA by spreading "democracy", the invaded country will have the same demo as you in the home country... Bullcrap.".. basically typify all Americans into one big heap which you know is not true.
Ive spent a lot of time in Moscow and all around Ukraine from Kyiv, Lyiv, Denepro, Lugansk, and around Crimea and the pseudo democracy in place there now is a buunch of horse crap. If you want to open a business you need first pay some a$$wipe thousands of dollars just to be allowed to have a storefront, then when you start making money they want a cut of it. This is a microcoism of what Russia is today, same BS.
What I didnt like was this crap of people on the western part of Ukraine who consider themselves western and democratic basically toppling what ruling party was in place. One of my brothers who lives abroad and is a greenpeace, socialist type guy was so thrilled with what was going on there in Ukraine but I saw it as Bush taking over another country. The west said the east cheated in the polls but where my wifes family is (Lugansk, UA) they said they voted but no one ever collected their votes on the second election. So naturally the west would win. It was a farce.
Personally, if people were honest I think Communism would flourish (then again capitalism would do good if people were honest too!). I would not have a problem living in soviet times if things REALLY were fair, but human nature tends to distort, cheat, rape, etc. The rich are gonna get richer. Like Bob Marley said... "If life was a thing money could buy, the rich would have it and the poor would die." That is about what is happening now.
But if I didnt live in a capitalist nation I would never have been able to travel abroad like ive done. I would never have my computers used for designing websites, graphics, and other things I love to do. Thats just the way it is. Sure in Russia things are changing, and from firsthand experience, things ARE getting better on the streets. With pirated software 
Im not for globalization like some, because US is being bombarded by illegals from all over. China, Mexico, India, etc. Im for legal migration but there has to be some limits for any country to survive. Look at Holland or France. 3 generations from now they will all be arabic and then what? There wont be any diversity of people or religions that can share ideas, there will be just one religion, like one superpower cramming is food down peoples mouths. If globalization continues I wont need to go to China someday, or Japan, or Ireland, or Russia... everyone will look the same, smell the same, and so on.
Its interesting conversation... Im not trying to be against you, Im trying to be part of this conversation. Cool?
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I'm really not trying to offend you, sorry if I sounded that way.
Well, for one part of globalization, I like that I can talk with people like you, several thousand kilometers away from me, and we understand eachother too, cause english is an international language. On the other hand, I hate it that there's a friggin' McDonald's everywhere, and we kind of travel in the same vehicles everywhere on earth, for example.
What you are talking about is only half of the problem. Globalization doesn't give the freedom of free migration to the individual. Not everyone would want to live elsewhere. What causing the phenomenon you say, is more like the effect of globalization....third world countries. Did you thought about why there are illegal immigrants, and so many "outlanders" in the developed western european countries? You shouldn't stop letting in people into your country, that's just plain stupid. We should stop the cause of the migration in the first place. Meaning, the war, the genocide, poverty, etc. in the refugee's homeland. And anyway, if the arabic guy who's living in Amsterdam wants to stay there, he stays. But maybe, if he sees how much his homeland developed, he mayhaps wants to get back to his family.
But the joke is, that capitalism has its bonds on these countries. By debt, and etc., only to keep the gigantic profits from the corruption of the local tyrants, and cheap labour. This has got to stop.
Thanks for the info on the ukraine elections. Now i know it was imperialism working again 
Thank god, the situation here is a tad better than what you described in the more eastern part of europe. Although, the examples of these countries show you the crap about stalinism, the over-complicated bureaucracy (by your example, you must know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody....), which still festers in the russian countries, and this is the thing that makes progress really slow, and creates crime. Really sad.
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Nice post. Im just curious because I have never heard of any ideas or solutions to these various topics discussed here. My eldest brother considers himself a socialist and pacifist and I do respect his views (tho he likes to force them upon me) but he never has a solution to the problem. His goal is to bring these woes to peoples attention so they arent blinded, but he never has thought further than that, offering any real solution. Can history be a judge? Can we look back on history for a solution? Or is this something we have to collectively figure out? If you have had any ideas it would be nice to hear from them. I know I havent sat back and thought about any solutions myself.
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Tough question. Well, we should do everything you said, basically. Make forums to debate, and look into history for solutions too.
All must start with a revolution. Dismissing the capitalist government, reforming the constitution, making or dismissing laws. While, in the form of a militia, raze the ruling class' property, capital itself. (although this is a very dangerous part, there should be a more peaceful way of doing this some way) Then, make all major factories, companies state-owned. Thus, profit making will still be important, but not as much as it was earlier. Creation of soviets, but with more of a city-state kind of idea. Make bureaucracy open as ever, to all intellectuals. (not much point in letting the janitor be a bureaucrat, eventhough, it shouldn't be really impossible "If everyone is a bureaucrat, no one is" - Lenin) State-ownership of schools, hospitals, all public service buildings. Learning free, healthcare free. In the mean time, reforming all educational systems, meaning more education of the stuff used in life too, economics for example.
Creation of public forums, which provides word for everyone, about everything. Thus, we can evade, for example the problem of manufacturing something that's a piece of crap, as it happened in the past. This problem is countered also by that we don't demolish concurrency between companies, on the contrary, we just make the play more fair.
Although, because of mostly everything being state-owned, corruption may be a huge issue. But, we should have the constitutional court still alive and kicking, so we could evade the destruction of freedom of speech, etc. This way, corruption cases will be dealth with much better, because everyone could know about everything. This may not have sense at first, but if you think about it, there are lots of intellectuals even in our society now, who would be able of seeing through these stuff, and thus, they can "report" to the public, even reviewing comitees could be created. (a kind of corporate police) The effect of "pay me and i won't say a thing" can be most effectively removed this way, i think.
Payments must be brought closer to eachother, but not as radically as Lenin wanted it, for example.
So, this is the kind of democracy i'm thinking about.
With all this happening in several developed countries, the third world will be an issue too, making a revolution there too, and constant aid to rebuild and develop Thus, we would live in a far better world, in theory at least. But I ask you, can we achieve anything if don't even try? Even if only half of these things get acomplished, that would create a world tenfold better than now.
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Finally I get a chance to reply! My wife just got her US green card. A long, tiring encounter with the US government (almost 3 years!). Talk about inadequate and disorganized system unlike what my wife tells me about the USSR. Here in the US we have the lowest possible paid workers processing our documents for her legalization and those workers dont give a rats a$$ what our outcome is. They are not there to help us in the process, just collect their paycheck, then go and buy some rap music on their way home.
Basically your reply sounds to me like you are a Marxist in the making 
~Dave
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I'll take that as a compliment
Well, actually it's not that simple. Marx based his political utopia on Hegel's philosophy of negation of the negation. Thus it should come like this: capitalism->socialism->communism. With the help of dialectics, these can be altered always, of course when it doesnt blow up into boureaucratic tyranny, as Trotsky put it. It's really not a dogma as what this should look like, it should be the people's choice and need.
Thus, what you described IS communism. It is natural that you don't agree with everything put infront of you. That's good. Marxism isn't a 600 lb weight on the people's backs, as J. Pickard well put it on marxist.com. It's a mere guideline, Marx knew very well that there can't be a universal reciept for the future, these are only the basics. Here's a good article from Pickard, about dialectical materialism, the base of marxism: [link]
And please, how do you think we should end the exploitation of the nine-tenth of the world? Give the capitalists a hug and a flower, and all is forgiven? They would do anything to stop us from succeeding.
I find it real good that you aren't as narrow-minded as the gentleman who made the deviation, and read more about this topic. Trotsky's article is very accurate too, even now, 70 years from when it was written.
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On a flip side you could always create an opposite to Communism and call it Multicapitalism = capitalism for the people. Capitalism is the rich riding on the backs of the poor. Socialism is the poor riding on the backs of the rich. Multicapitalism gives everyone the opportunity to prosper equally. A society where the government insures that every citizen will become a successful capitalist and land owner without excessive taxation or loss of privacy or freedom.
Heres some more food for thought:
Communism is nothing more than a form of monopolistic Capitalism of a different extreme with the word public property replacing the words private property. As an example:
"As the proletariat chief addressed the people in the crowded square he ranted about the evils of capitalism, their decadence and the exploitation of the laboring classes by PRIVATE PROPERTY owners like Donald Trump. He explained that in communist society there could be no exploitation or unfairness because of the simple fact "NO ONE, NOT EVEN HE COULD OWN PRIVATE PROPERTY" and that "ALL PROPERTY WAS GOVERNMENT OWNED ONLY!" So you see, the accumulation of wealth is impossible in this perfect society of fairness and equality.
At this point the people cheered and knew they where free of exploitation forever. They smiled with fondness in their hearts as the proletariat chief exited the podium. He then waved to the crowd as he climbed into his PUBLICLY owned limousine and drove off with his PUBLICLY paid for driver. As the large black gate opened, his PUBLICLY owned 40 bed room government mansion was revealed. As the butler opened the door for him his PUBLICLY paid for servants awaited their orders. They quickly prepared his steak and lobster dinner because he needed to get to the airport quickly as his PUBLICLY owned jet awaited his arrival. It appears he was late for a family vacation at his PUBLICLY owned government vacation resort home in the south. "
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Well, if that would be makeable, then why didn't someone already do it? It's impossible, man. You can think about capitalism in two ways. For one, a way that it's capitalism's need to get more and more people richer in order for them to consume more and more. But that just isn't the thing. The second way is admitting to capital's nature, to make more of capital by exploiting the labour going trough its reproduction. Profit is only partly that factor which is the proccess of making goods from capital, then selling it at a higher price to make profits. That would only create a minor profit. But it is capital's interest to make as much profit as possible: the worker gets fooled, and exploited. S/he gets only part of the actual price of the work s/he's done, and the time of labour is increasing, or the amount of work the worker must do within given time.
And anyways, there would be powerful, rich people (the ruling capitalist class) who'd like it if they'd get even richer, and would use their influence in politics to end these policies.
Well, yes, the socialist revolution must have in it the nationalization of companies. Thus creating a kind of state monopoly over the economy. The point is really to create an economic controlling unit from the state, adding to it the most possible flexibility with the freedom of speech. (this is why Trotsky said: "Socialism needs democracy as our body needs oxygen") Actually, real socialism has never happened in our history, whereas the revolution happened and all things went as planned by the revolutionaries.
And yes, that example scares me too. It's what Orwell wrote in his Animal farm too. But partly this is why I think forced equalization is foolish, and that critique must be the highest possible against the current rulers. And of course, the need for leaders with morale is high, aswell as the need for reforms and laws against corruption.
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"But, even with this deformed worker's state, the stalinists was able to create the best environment for the common man since the beginning of history. By everyone having jobs, money enough for everything, everyone being in some community, helping the needy, and doing social work together; education, healthcare free, etc."
Are you insane? people were shot for talking poorly about Stalin, or 'communism' in general - or they went to work in Siberian slave camps, which only had a slightly higher survival rate. the whole system breaks down because people who do easier jobs, or menial jobs get paid the same amount as those who do the stressful, hard jobs. in your fantasy world a janitor would get paid the same amount, and get the same (shitty) benefits as a surgeon, doctor, phycist, etc.
commuism/socialism provides no incentive for people to improve themselves, which in turn would improve society. the culture stagnates and fails because of that. i took quite offense to your free healthcare because while free, it's a crock of shit. every year in England alone, thousands die needlessly because they had third-world cancer care. i'd presume that it's worse in other parts of europe, not to mention africa, the middle east and south america.
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Freedom of speech: What you are talking about is hard-core stalinism, which was characteristic only for ~1924-1953. After that, the situation was much better.
And anyway, you are just talking about the old systems, eventhough I stated that these weren't the real thing, and I said it to you why even.
Payment:I really don't get it where did you read such thing... Everyone should get the amount of money which suits the work type, although woth not that huge gap.
Self-improvement: you're incredibly superficial in this matter. There were dozens of free seminars which you could sign up to, and there were a variety of stuff to learn, from engineering to philosophy. You only had to buy the books for it, but that was practically no money, compared to today's seminars' prices. The only seminars that was pay-only were the language courses, but that wasn't as pricey either.
Culture: according to the UN's research in the 70's (or 80's i don't remember), Hungary had the most books in an average household. It wasn't the real thing, with censorship and all, but a lot more people read books back then, now culture isn't that important to the average citizen. Going to theatres is becoming a thing to do for the wealthy.
About healthcare: it wasn't, it's far more shitty now, with capitalism tearing apart the whole thing, the machines used are getting older and older, problems with founding and payment etc.
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must say you have a very narrow view of these things...at least that's what it seems like...
it wasn't ever just NS or Communism that failed...it was a mixture of that and things like dictatorship, racism, etc...
don't want to say i support NS... absolutely not!
while your at it, make a WP about our system being a failure...
you said, u wanted them to look like screen....maybe scanlines would make em look better?
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Socialism still exists. In fact many of the rights we have in the west were won by socialists fighting against capitalism. They arn't inherent in capitalism. None the less a few socialist states survive, and are doing well. In places where the free market took over they are doing worse then they ever have.
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sorry about this, it didn't show up the first time
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Well that all depends on what type of communism, on judging the ideal or the government, or taking or lack thereof in the variables not thought of in the original concept, such as "absolute power corrupts absolutely"
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Well it depends not only one what form of communism, and the failure of the idea or the failure of the system, but more on what level of failure, and taking in different variables that the ideal of communism did not take into the concept which fucked the USSR
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