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Published: 2016-05-23 11:22:30 +0000 UTC; Views: 154888; Favourites: 625; Downloads: 13
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Description
Who is LGBT?LGBT typically stands for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender. Sometimes other letters or a plus sign are added to include everyone who is not heterosexual or cisgender. In the context it's being used here, LGBT means anyone who does not fit into the expected norms of sexuality or gender. Those norms are: being exclusively attracted to the opposite sex (straight) and identifying as your biological sex (cisgender). Anyone not fitting that has faced the same condemnation seen here, whether asexual, intersex, or any other variations. However, since the main focus of "sin" is aimed at those attracted to their own sex, that is the main issue addressed here.
Is being LGBT a sin?
A surprising number of Christians believe that being LGBT is a sin. But sin is an action, not a person. For example, if I were to suddenly punch you in the face, that would be a sin, but neither my fist nor your face would be a sin. Similarly, planning in my brain to commit a crime would be a sin, but my brain itself would not be. Both my hands and brain are just as capable of doing loving things.
All people can and do sin, but simply existing or being different can not be a sin. Still, since this is such a common belief, let's explore the primary reason that some Christians cite for believing being LGBT is a sin: the belief that the Bible condemns being LGBT.
Adam and Eve
The story of Adam and Eve in the Bible and is an account of the first two humans. Some Christians have argued that the existence of Adam and Eve as the earliest humans somehow invalidates the existence of anyone who is not called to be heterosexual and procreate. You may have heard this stated as "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."
However, Adam and Eve's children intermarried, Abraham married his sister and another woman, Jacob his two cousins at the same time, etc, but does that mean that the Bible says we should all practice incest and polygamy? No, of course not. The Bible is simply telling the story of certain people at certain points in history. Readers often insert their own bias into scripture when they make history into something it clearly is not, such as the argument that because Eve was made from Adam's rib that transgender people don't exist.
Most of what the Bible says is simply retelling of events. For example, many argue that the command "be fruitful and multiply" speaks against not being heterosexual, but that command is only stated twice in the Bible; when there was only Adam and Eve's family on earth and then when there was only Noah's family on earth. It is never commanded again, so this can not be used as an argument for why everyone must find a mate of the opposite sex and breed.
The truth is that the Bible is clear that we all have different paths in life, as seen in statements like Paul's in 1 Corinthians 7, that it is better not to have sex ever. Obviously this doesn't mean no one should ever have sex, but in context that celibacy is a gift for some people. It's like the argument "if everyone were gay, people would stop existing". No one is arguing everyone should be LGBT, but some argue everyone should be straight cisgender and forced to breed against their will. There is no biblical evidence that we are all called to be like the first humans and in fact many verses say the opposite. So many men, women and children continue to suffer because of being pressured into heterosexual relationships and breeding because we've made an idol out of a biological instinct to procreate and justify it by falsely claiming it's really God commanding it.
The attempt to take some parts of the Bible out of context and ignore the rest, such as to say God made Adam and Eve period or God made male and female period doesn't work, because the Bible also says God made everyone else, which naturally includes Steve and another guy named Adam. God made Adam and Eve and Adam and Steve too.
The New Testament also says there is no male and female but we are all one in Christ (Galatians 3), so one should always be skeptical of "the Bible says this period and that's why I believe it" when really it's "this is the part of the Bible I'm going to take out of context and apply to everyone because that way I can make the Bible fit what I believe."
Sodom
The story of Sodom and it's destruction in Genesis 18-19 is the oldest and most famous biblical account used to condemn homosexuals. In fact, it's where the word sodomite and the idea of sodomy laws comes from. The specific part referenced is when angels visit Lot and a mob attempts to gang rape what they think are invading strangers.
Some have argued that Lot saying the attempted gang rape is "a wicked thing" shows homosexuality or even homosexual people are "wicked", but there's no getting around that it was attempted rape. The mob threatens Lot directly that they'll treat him "worse" if he doesn't move aside, meaning they knew it was an act of cruelty, not consent or even desire. It was a punishment. The verses have been there plain as day for millennia, but yet the prejudice has been so prevalent that they were ignored.
While this may seem odd today, rape of outsiders and enemies was actually a common practice in ancient times. Conquering soldiers would often rape the men of the conquered villages, sometimes to humiliate them and sometimes with sticks covered in spikes to torture them. Being a receptive participant in anal sex has long been seen in patriarchal cultures as "feminine" and therefore "weak". The rapists would of course still consider themselves heterosexual.
This is also illustrated in the later passages that mention Sodom, repeatedly referring to its inhabitants as inhospitable to strangers. Although many reasons are given for its destruction, including being wealthy but ignoring the poor and being unkind to widows and orphans (Ezekiel 16), no passages mention homosexuality or male-male intercourse, let alone attractions or loving relationships. In fact, none mention the attempted gang rape, implying that it was merely a part of the often repeated inhospitality to strangers. So, it's completely unbiblical to claim that what the Bible doesn't say about Sodom is actually the sin of Sodom and not what the bible really says.
A similar event to this occurs later in Judges 19-20, however this time a female outsider is actually gang raped and, since no angels intervene this time, she is gang raped to death. Interestingly, this event is never mentioned by those who believe that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality. Gibeah was also destroyed following the gang rape, so would it not be logical to conclude that, if attempted gang rape of angels condemns homosexuals, the gang rape of the Levite woman would condemn heterosexuals? After all, if gang rape that results in a city's destruction is the same as a person falling in love with someone of the same sex, surely it cuts both ways and condemns opposite sex couples too. Anything else would be hypocritical and downright deceitful.
Even if someone sincerely does not understand the difference between consent and rape or is so biased that they can't figure it out in this case and they are in need of a serious education before they excuse rape, there is absolutely no excuse for comparing someone attracted to someone else to a rapist. Yet, throughout history parents have used Sodom as a reason to condemn their own children when they confess having a crush on someone of the same sex. People rarely choose their feelings. People choose to commit rape.
Old Testament Laws
There are over six hundred Jewish laws listed in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Of these, only two are used to condemn LGBT people. One is that men should not wear women's clothing and women should not wear men's clothing (Deuteronomy 22). The other is that men should not lay together in beds of women, typically translated as to have sex with each other as they do with a woman, generally assumed to refer to penetrative anal sex (Leviticus 18).
Some English translations use the word "abomination" or "detestable" to describe these acts, but those exact same translations also call pigs, shrimp, being a shepherd and a whole host of things the exact same words because the original Hebrew is the same word in each case, which literally means unclean and, by itself, an idol, as referenced in the previous and almost never mentioned verse in Leviticus 18, which shows the context is temple prostitution. Old Testament laws also forbid simply wearing mixed fabric and call Jewish customs "abominations" and "detestable" to the Egyptians and, when referenced in the New Testament, the term "unclean" is used.
While crossdressing or wearing mixed fiber blends is distinctly different than being transgender and same-sex attractions or relationships are not the same as having unprotected anal sex or treating a man like a woman sexually, which was considered degrading in ancient patriarchal cultures, many Christians still cite these verses to condemn people who have done none of those things. In fact, many often say God finds being LGBT "detestable" or an "abomination" and claim that means God "hates" being LGBT, yet would never call eating shrimp, bacon, or wearing their husband's shirt "detestable" or an "abomination" or claim playing football is "hated" by God even though the exact same words are used to describe each case.
While some people admit the actual meaning is "unclean" and that changing it in English translations to "detestable" or "abomination" while also ignoring what the New Testament says about unclean things being made clean, may be somewhat dishonest, most people are still unaware that the original Hebrew prohibitions of incest in Leviticus also changed, specifically to eliminate the possibility of perceiving it as being accepting of same-sex relationships.
We can see this in how the original text states not to uncover the nakedness (how the Old Testament often describes sex) of various relatives, including your mother, father, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, etc. Yet we then see how the wording was changed, saying things like "Do not have sex with your mother, she is your mother. Do not have sex with your father's wife, he is your father." and likewise saying "aunt" but then "uncle's wife" instead of the original "uncle." Adding "'s wife" was a rather cheap way to make it seem less accepting of non-incestuous same-sex relationships by making it all about heterosexuality. After all, you can't claim forbidding opposite-sex incest doesn't condemn all opposite-sex relationships while also claiming forbidding same-sex incest condemns all same-sex relationships, so it had to change to uphold the myth that the Bible condemns same-sex relationships. In fact, the Hebrew word describing the actual act seen as sex between two men in Leviticus 18 is only used elsewhere to describe incest, specifically in Genesis 49.
These changes mean that just two supposedly anti-LGBT Old Testament laws are mentioned by those who claim the Bible is anti-LGBT. Moreover, those laws are singled out with no mention of their context because they are next to laws that forbid planting two types of crops in a field, eating or touching a variety of animals, getting a haircut, and hundreds more. In fact, just three verses before the prohibition of unprotected anal sex is a prohibition of a man having sex with his wife too close to her menstruation cycle. Yet, how many Christians preach against having sex for a week and a half each month the way they do against "homosexuality"?
Also, many of these laws may sound mild today yet were punishable by exile or even death. So, unless someone is willing to advocate that the Bible says we must kill a woman who isn't a virgin on her wedding night, taking those two laws out of context to condemn LGBT people is extremely hypocritical.
It's no wonder Christ spent much of His ministry replacing Old Testament laws, including eye for an eye, hating your enemy, dietary restrictions, working on the Sabbath, divorce, adultery, acquiring wealth, and much more, by measuring them against love to follow the only true law, to love God and everyone as yourself. Many Christians believe that, when the Bible says Jesus fulfilled the law, Christians are no longer bound to the old law, as described in Paul's letter to Rome, but to the law of love.
Romans
The first chapter of Romans, which is a letter written by Paul to the church in Rome, is another popular passage used to condemn LGBT people. The section in question describes people in the temples of Rome worshiping idols in the shape of reptiles and birds. Those familiar with temple worship and sex orgies in ancient Rome may not find this surprising, but what follows is.
Each practice in the temples is described as a punishment, using language such as "for this reason" or "therefore, God gave them over". The progression starts with the first few commandments, including having other gods and making graven images, but progresses to heterosexual and homosexual sex acts and eventually murder. It is of course the brief mention of "unrestrained lust" or "all lust but no love" in these orgies, specifically for the same sex, that is used to condemn homosexuals, but more interesting still are the conclusions that many Christians draw.
In order to believe the first chapter of Romans condemns homosexuals, you must believe that homosexuality is 1) a punishment from God for worshiping idols and graven images in the shape of animals, 2) starts out as unrestrained heterosexual lust, 3) is solely about lust and orgies, 4) results in every sin imaginable, including murder, and 5) anyone who doesn't condemn them "is deserving of death." So, it should not be surprising that some Christians conclude that people turn gay when they abandon God and worship creation, do not feel genuine love, that they are murderers, possibly by spreading sexually transmitted diseases, and that anyone who supports them is damned to hell.
This view of Romans 1 is also why there are a number of Christians who believe that people with same-sex attractions are "reprobates" and were made gay as a punishment from God and can therefore never be saved. This mindset is also why suicide rates increase among LGBT youth if they are in households that believe people are made gay as a punishment from God.
However, people are born LGBT, homosexual included. Direct observation, witness testimonies and scientific data all support this. However, even if this were not true, not only do people not choose their sexuality, but the turning away from God happens after the rejection and condemnation. They turn away because they are rejected and condemned simply for being different. Also, LGBT people are capable of the same range of feelings as anyone else, including both love and lust. Although, they are more likely to be murdered than be a murderer.
If someone is going to condemn a whole group of people because the Bible says lust without love is wrong, surely all heterosexuals should be condemned, since the Bible condemns opposite-sex lust without love as well, in fact only a couple verses prior to the one cherry-picked to condemn gay people in Romans 1.
Why not say Romans 1 condemns opposite-sex couples too since it also condemns the same exact lust and practices between them too? Anything else would again be hypocritical and as deceitful as the way this passage is often twisted. In fact, the very next chapter of Romans condemns the previous chapter being used to single out others as worse sinners and the rest of Romans goes on to explain we are all equally sinful and in need of Christ. Singling out a verse and making up its context doesn't make that truth go away.
Marriage
Before same-sex marriage was legalized in the US, a common argument as to why same-sex couples are sinning by being together was the argument that sex outside marriage is wrong and same-sex couples can't marry, so therefore if they have sex in their relationship then their relationship is wrong.
Of course, not only did this reduce such relationships to sex acts and invalidate the vows same-sex couples made in private just between them and God, but it was dependant on constantly fighting to forbid same-sex couples from marrying just to keep claiming they're sinning. Yet, who was sinning, the couple who had been together decades finally able to legally marry or those fighting to prevent people from a union that promotes monogamy and faithfulness? This is why the argument was changed to how marriage is defined in the Bible once there was a prospect of same-sex marriage becoming legal.
At first this was done by talking about "traditional marriage" and saying two people of the same sex falling in love and wanting to spend their lives together shouldn't be allowed to marry because it wasn't traditional. However, since the "traditional" form of marriage throughout most of the Bible was a property arrangement where a man bought a wife from her father and could have as many wives as he could afford, the "traditional marriage" argument was scrapped in favor of marriage being defined as "between one man and one woman."
Since the Bible never explicitly defines marriage and the majority of marriages in the Bible are polygamous, it may seem odd that so many Christians today claim the Bible defines marriage as exclusively "between one man and one woman." To do this, they use Christ quoting Genesis 2 in Matthew 19 and Mark 10 and then say what Christ "really meant to say" since the Bible doesn't say what they want it to. There is no "one man and one woman" to quote from after all.
Of course, Christ was actually talking about why divorce and remarriage is wrong and the part taken out of context literally says that humans should not separate a couple that God has brought together. Yet, do those quoting this use it to condemn remarriage as adultery like Christ really said? No, instead they twist and misuse scripture to claim it's actually condemning same-sex couples instead. Moreover, they are using a message that explicitly says not to separate couples in order to separate any couple that doesn't fit what they believe God intended. They believe Christ saying not to separate couples through divorce really means to separate same-sex couples through forbidding marriage. So, at best they're being hypocritical and at worst deliberately deceptive.
While some admit Christ was talking about divorce when speaking of divorce, they argue that the quoted part, specifically Genesis 2, still defines marriage as between one man and one woman. However, the context of the verse in question is when God created Eve from Adam's rib and how men and women originating from one flesh is why they become one flesh again to procreate. For this to be the foundation of "biblical marriage," marriage literally becomes a sex act. Weddings, asexual or older people marrying without having sex, people seeking companionship, etc, would suddenly be outside "biblical marriage" and any man leaving his home to go hook up with a girl, married or not, would be "biblical marriage" since they become "one flesh" and that happening between a man and a woman supposedly defines marriage for everyone. Since this is obviously not true, then taking the passage out of context to claim it defines biblical marriage can't be true either.
Most Christians will agree that the first half of the quoted sentence in Genesis 2 is a generalization. After all, not every man leaves his father and mother to go off and become one flesh with a woman. Maybe he's already on his own or doesn't have living parents or only one parent, but we can all agree it doesn't invalidate their relationship. In fact, when this part of Genesis 2 is quoted again in Ephesians 5, it's immediately preceded by Paul saying no one hates his own flesh but instead nurtures it. This is obviously a generalization, as self harm and body dysphoria exists in some people. So why admit the Bible is filled with generalizations, even in the very sentence, but then claim one part is not only universal but that it defines a word not even mentioned in the sentence? This is obviously an attempt to twist the Bible to fit the belief that scripture enslaves us to all live a certain way rather than sets us free to live how God has called us to, loving one another not as a sex or gender, but as a person.
Some who acknowledge the limitations of this argument say that because Paul gave instructions to husbands and wives means he was forbidding any marriage that isn't a husband and a wife. However, they make this claim by taking small bits of what Paul wrote on marriage out if context and ignoring the rest. Paul was actually much more adamant that men and women shouldn't marry, as they tend to focus more on their physical spouse than serving God, and that even a man can be a bride and should live accordingly. Of course, you won't hear those arguing against same-sex marriage bring this up.
And, when Paul instructs husbands to love their wives and leaves out telling wives to love their husbands, does anyone really believe women shouldn't also love their husbands? If not, why limit the rest of what Paul wrote on marriage to reserved for the opposite sex, especially when so much is for families in general with no mention of gender or sex?
The ironic part is that the wedding vows that state that everything that is one spouse's is also the other's are stated between two men into the Bible and the wedding prayer that has been used for generations by countless of opposite-sex couples is from a vow made between two women in the Bible. To then turn things upside down and claim that not only do opposite-sex couples get to claim these vows for the own but that the Bible somehow forbids people of the same sex from using them when they too want to share their lives together is insulting to both LGBT people and to the Bible.
There are many Christians who have been taught to believe that because creation was perfect before the Fall, anything outside the confines of what is seen as "God's original intent" during creation is automatically a sin. For example, claiming that because the first humans were male and female and that is traditionally seen as the first married couple, anything else is therefore outside "real" marriage and God's plan and therefore wrong. Yet, Adam and Eve didn't have a wedding ceremony or exchange vows as we do today, so is it wrong that heterosexual couples mimic the same-sex vows from the Bible today? Adam and Eve didn't wear clothes and only ate plants. That was clearly God's original intent with creation, so are we sinning if we don't follow His intent by all becoming vegan nudists?
The problem is that this same argument has been used for generations to single out and condemn people as not being part of God's creation simply for being different or loving someone others say they shouldn't. Whether it's for being left handed, being gay, being trans, or just looking different, people naturally react out of fear and distrust toward differences and try to justify their reaction by saying they just don't approve because it's not perfect or not the original design. But there wasn't originally all these breeds of cats and dogs, yet their variety is no less amazing. Did God really have no part in that simply because the variety appeared so long after that perfect creation?
Some people fall in love with someone of the same sex instead of the opposite sex. They want to share their lives, their families, their hopes and dreams, and their future with that one person and grow old together abiding in love. Yet some people try so hard to stop them when truly they don't know if God has brought them together. They simply assume God is absent because a relationship doesn't fit what they've been taught is the only "right" relationship. Yet one only has to skim the Bible and see all the variety of relationships and realize everyone is different and that God obviously loves variety. Just look at the variety of creation. To try to limit that is what is truly against God's design.
The truth is that marriage is not simply some physical act of becoming one flesh but so much more. In fact, it's not just that polygamous and incestuous relationships were called marriage even by Christ using a parable of a man marrying many virgins, but we're told there's no male or female but all are one in Christ and Christians are even called the bride of Christ. That means that a Christian man is married to the male human form of God. Yes, two men are married and that's biblical. So, to obsess over the physical gender of people and over marriage being about sex is raising the physical too high. To pretend the Bible defines marriage as some limited physical union reserved for certain people rather than a spiritual connection for all God calls is definitely not biblical and no amount of redefining scripture can ever change that.
Other Verses
There are a small handful of verses that are also used to condemn LGBT people, but those passages discuss temple prostitution or child kidnapping in all but the recent anti-homosexual Bible translations. For this reason, many Christians avoid them unless they believe their modern translation represents the only version or they're just searching for condemnation on the internet and that's what comes up.
For example, in 1 Corinthians 6, after a long period of claiming it condemned masturbation, several modern interpretations now claim the two Greek words currently translated into English as "men who have sex with men" or "effeminate" and "those who defile themselves with mankind" are the active and passive partners in anal sex between men, but admit in the notes of those bibles that the word they claim is the passive partner actually refers to boys kidnapped for sex and the word they claim is the active partner actually refers to a man who organizes prostitution. This can be seen clearly in 1 Timothy 1, when the Greek word translators claim is the "passive" partner (kidnapped sex slaves) is missing and instead "kidnappers" appears next to "active" partner (literally pimp).
Some people claim the Bible doesn't condemn child molestation, but it turns out it actually originally did. The Greek word arsenokoites appears twice in the Bible and most historians agree Paul probably made it up. In 1 Corinthians it is paired with malakos, which the NJKV notes says means catamite or boys kidnapped into sex slavery, and in 1 Timothy is paired with kidnappers. In both cases kidnapping children into sex slavery is condemned. While it's possible scribes felt the wording of the Greek Corinthians passage could be used to condemn boys who are raped rather than the rapists themselves and so felt the need to change it, there is really no excuse to change it to "homosexuals" as in the NIV or "effeminate" as in the KJV.
Many people are under the false impression that molestation by priests is some recent phenomena that has plagued the Catholic Church, but it actually dates back before the Reformation that led to the split of Christianity into Catholic and Protestant. In fact, in 1521 and nearly a full century before the KJV, Martin Luther argued in "The Misuse of the Mass" that because priests were forbidden to marry, they would have sex in other ways, such as what he called "Ganymedes", which is a reference to the Greek myth of a young boy taken up to live with the gods because of his beauty.
This is just one example of how a few in the church who exploited children replaced the Bible's clear condemnation of their actions with one against a convenient scapegoat, be it feminine men, transgender women, or gay men. Other translators simply followed suit. So, in many bibles, modern translations simply put "homosexuals", so as to include not just men who don't have anal sex and so don't even fit into the easily discredited theory of the Greek words but also women who happen to be homosexual. They apparently believe God's Word needs to be "fixed" of it's oversights. Maybe they thought God is sexist and needed more female inclusion in His Word? Either way, it's a direct insult to God and His Word.
Interestingly enough, although the Bible clearly describes female sexual desire, sometimes graphically such as in verses like Ezekiel 23:20 or in the Song of Solomon, some modern translators translate male temple prostitutes as "homosexual" but leave female temple prostitutes alone, even when they appear in the same verse. This is because patriarchal culture has long believed that women have no sexual desires, only men. This is why, in the 1950s, Alfred Kinsey, after receiving praise for his studies revealing the diversity of male sexuality, was nearly blocked from studying female sexuality. Women and children were considered to be sexually innocent and the men in power feared seeing their wives and girls differently.
It wasn't until recently that Christians began using Romans 1 to condemn lesbians, as the original texts describe intercourse, possibly with animals or anally with men since women can't have intercourse with each other. Because of an unwillingness to see women as sexual, to this day that passage remains one of the only verse argued to condemn same-sex relations between women in its original form.
Studying Scripture
Since Jesus never spoke against homosexual people or relationships and the only interaction with someone in a same-sex relationship was positive, some claim that all mentions of "sexual immorality" or "fornication" are condemnations of homosexuality by saying that the Greek word porneia that Jesus used condemns all sinful sex acts. The idea is that homosexual sex is wrong because Jesus said sexual immorality is wrong and therefore Jesus really said being homosexual is wrong. But, not only is this a circular fallacy presenting a conclusion claiming to be it's own proof, but the Greek word it's translated from actually means prostitution and was used for sexual infidelity. This is yet another example of deliberately twisting scripture, this time raising the bar on deception by inserting words Jesus never said just so they can condemn one group of people and claim it's not really them but Christ.
Because of the gay rights movement, some translations that added "homosexual" after its invention changed it to "homosexual offenders" to narrow the meaning and seem less condemning. Many modern Christians believe that people being born LGBT is like being born with a temptation to sin, but if they act straight and cisgender their entire lives, they are remaining pure.
Therefore, to maintain the belief that the Bible condemns LGBT people to a life of lies, lies about the Bible's content are necessary. Moreover, it requires not mentioning all the verses that speak positively about LGBT people, such as the role of eunuchs, which would today be called LGBT. It also means avoiding positive portrayals of relationships between people of the same sex, such as the story of Jonathan's love for David and it being "greater than the love of women", the tender love of Daniel and Ashpenaz, Jesus praising the Roman centurion for his faith before healing his male partner, the familial love and commitment between Ruth and Naomi that led to the most often used wedding prayer of all time, and more.
In fact, as early as the first century translation of the Hebrew Bible (the Septuagint) that Paul uses in his letters to the early churches that make up much of what became the New Testament, references to same-sex relationships, including much of David and Jonathan's, were missing. And, since even the now quite old King James Bible deliberately added the invented word "sodomite" to replace words that have nothing to do with either Sodom or gay people solely in an attempt to perpetuate the myth that Sodom was a gay city and that the Bible condemns being gay, LGBT people are often forced to study the origins of the Bible and read texts in their original language in order to find the truth, whereas anti-LGBT Christians have centuries of special made bibles altered and ready for condemnation.
However, because the focus is on adding condemnation for one group, that's often the only part that has changed. Millennia worth of Bible versions exist, including those discovered through archeology to have been penned a thousand years before the invention of the printing press a few hundred years ago, so proof the Bible has been selectively altered specifically wherever condemnation of LGBT people was added is abundant. Anyone who denies the Bible has been changed in order to condemn gay people is either deceived or lying, because the proof is overwhelming.
Thanks to the internet, someone can read different versions of the Bible and ask themselves why only one part changes and then research the origins of that passage for themselves. Someone can even take an online course to learn ancient Hebrew and Greek and then learn the true meaning of the verses for themselves. Since these changes are often made with no alteration to the other passages that teach loving people and being honest about who they are, this means a deep study of scripture is always LGBT affirming.
See, when Christians try to condemn LGBT people, they do so by going to scripture to search for any possible condemnation. However, when other Christians go to scripture with an open mind and heart, they read it in context and study it before coming to a conclusion. One group looks for proof for what they already believe so they can justify their negative feelings, while another group reads and studies the Bible and it's history and let's that shape what they believe.
That's why so many of those who intensely study the Bible and it's origins for years are not condemning, because they reach that conclusion from scripture instead of having a conclusion already and looking for proof, as those who are anti-LGBT do. That's also why the anti-LGBT arguments require so much twisting and misreading of scripture and why it's the LGBT affirming Christians who encourage everyone to read and study for themselves while anti-LGBT Christians tell people what to believe and attack them if they try to find out the truth for themselves.
"Cherry Picking" and "Twisting Scripture"
Some Christians become angry with attempts to "twist" scripture or "insert perversion" (as if being LGBT makes someone more of a pervert) into the Bible by including LGBT people into God's plan. They argue that Satan wants churches to welcome LGBT people so that they have a chance to know Christ (as if Satan wants people to come to know Christ) and that forcing LGBT people out of churches and deliberately twisting scripture for generations is fighting Satan (despite it resulting in many LGBT people abandoning their faith, which would be Satan's real goal).
Yet, those same Christians calmly explain away slavery and polygamy or women being required to cover their heads in the New Testament as cultural or alterations to the Bible as improvements, when all LGBT affirming Christians argue is to stop the generations of twisting scripture to condemn one group of people. We realized it was wrong for slavery, segregation, sexism, being left handed and much more, so maybe it's time to study the Bible with a fresh perspective yet again. The biblical context has been there all along, just ignored in favor of selective condemnation.
The irony is that those who deliberately "cherry pick" verses accuse LGBT affirming Christians of doing so. Those who claim the Bible is anti-LGBT, anti-gay, or anti-transgender are quick to condemn not just LGBT people but Christians who argue the Bible should be read in context and not cherry picked to try to single out a group of people by taking a few verses out of context and distorting their meaning.
Yes, these are the same people who cherry pick attempted gang rape in Sodom but refuse to acknowledge all references to Sodom's sins or gang rape not being a sexuality, who claim Romans 1 speaks about gay people but deliberately refuse to acknowledge what most of the chapter says or read the next chapter, who literally say half a verse in Leviticus applies today but refuse to acknowledge the rest of the verse or the other laws, who carefully pick the modern translation that says what they want while ignoring the rest or the original Hebrew and Greek, who take Jesus talking about divorce and apply it to everything while ignoring the context or the rest of what He said, and on and on.
They'll also often argue that reading the LGBT affirming passages as they were originally written is "inserting perversion." This is because they see LGBT people as innately perverse, so that's what they imagine. We can see this whenever someone compares Jonathan's love for David to two people of the same sex in love today. They see no connection at all to two people of the same sex in the Bible falling in love and professing that love and making lifelong vows with two people of the same sex in modern times falling in love and professing that love and making lifelong vows because they have an image in their minds of gay people being perverts and so they put that image into the Bible and rightly say it doesn't fit. But, rather than admit they are projecting it there from their own perverse imagination, they blame the people saying a loving relationship is a loving relationship and falsely claim it's they who want to insert perversion, which is truly insulting.
A common argument against those who expose all the lies and manipulations used to condemn LGBT people is to say that removing the condemnation will open the door to every sin imaginable. For example, they may claim that if two people of the same sex can form a monogamous committed relationship and not have that condemned by twisting scripture, then sin is being encouraged. Yet think about that for a moment. Why would combatting lies encourage sin? Obviously it doesn't. But it does expose hypocrisy and make people realize that their own sexual sins that they constantly excuse aren't wrong because of the gender but because they hurt or use others, including themselves. LGBT people being held to the same moral standard as them is the real fear, as no longer being able to look down on LGBT people means they are held to the same moral standard they hold others to. And facing one's own hypocrisy can be hard.
The "Traditional" Interpretation
While some non-affirming Christians admit that at least some of the verses used to single LGBT people out have been taken out of context and twisted, there are still many Christians who believe the "traditional" interpretation must be correct simply because it has been around so long. But the "traditional" interpretation of holy wars, herecy, justifiable murder, slavery, sexism and more existed for a long time too, as did the practice of forbidding people from reading the Bible for themselves before the Reformation. Just because a lot of people believe something doesn't make it true. Truth must be verifiable and, to be biblical, it must be founded in love (1 Corinthians 13 and 1 John).
Imagine for a moment using the the "it's traditional" argument to condemn any other group of people as being morally inferior. People who came up with the anti-LGBT interpretations are well documented to have looked down on and despised LGBT people. In fact, when these views first became "traditional", anyone suspected of being gay was killed. Would we trust the interpretation of someone who looks down on one race of people and practices enslaving them when it comes to how we should read the Bible's view on races and slavery? No of course not. So why believe the interpretations of people known to have despised and killed the very group of people they tell us we should see as morally inferior? We shouldn't.
The truth is that these same Christians are only able to read the Bible at all because centuries ago some Christians stood against the traditional view that only priests should be allowed to read the Bible because the commoners would realize they were being lied to about scripture. So much mistreatment of people who were different only ended because some people stood up to tradition and acted out of heroic compassion.
In fact, many Christians who still believe the Bible is "anti-homosexuality" (rather than "anti-homosexual") have moved away from the long held tradition of the story of Sodom being about homosexuality and toward what the Bible actually says. This shows that what was once "tradition" was questioned and the truth was found instead even on this exact issue.
Again, the truth is that Christians' views do change and that can be a wonderful thing. For example, just as Christians who find the idea of gay sex "gross" try to claim it's actually God who does since they know their feelings are not authoritative, many Christians used to do the same for those who happened to be left handed. Since most people are right handed, before the invention of toilet paper, cultures around the world exclusively used their left hand to clean themselves. So, using one's left hand dominantly was considered a horrible sin. This led to Christians picking out any seemingly negative references to being left handed and using it to justify their disgust, torment or even murder of left handed people, just as they did for gay people.
And, just as modern Christians moved beyond murdering gay people as they felt the Bible allowed to do to simply condemning them, historical Christians moved toward simply claiming that the Bible says God made everyone to be right handed and that having a desire to use one's left hand isn't a sin but engaging in the behavior of using it for anything but dirty tasks was a sin. They'd even point to the ambidextrous or those who tormented themselves trying to be right handed as "proof" that God saved people from the "sinful lifestyle" of being left handed, just as they do today with calling bisexuals and those who try to pretend to be straight "ex-gays." Just like with left handed people, they falsely claim God saves people from being LGBT by pointing to those who consistently are shown to be lying in order to appease judgmental Christians. It's calling lies truth and truth lies and saying it's okay because it's "traditional".
Christ taught that we can judge good teachings from bad ones by their fruits, that is the results of those teachings. If the history of anti-LGBT teachings were good then the result wouldn't be what it is: twisting scripture, LGBT people feeling pushed from their faith, LGBT people feeling forced to lie about themselves in order to be accepted by Christians or even for their own personal safety, Christians feeling emboldened to mistreat and discriminate against LGBT people, and Christians mocking fellow Christians who are loving toward LGBT people.
In fact, every poll on the subject consistently shows that the church's anti-LGBT teachings push more people away from Christianity than any other modern issue and that while being Christian in general reduces suicide it increases it specifically in LGBT people, which of course is Satan's goal. And the history of condemning same-sex relationships has been shown to be responsible for the promiscuity of same-sex relationships in the past because long-term relationships were too easy to spot and thus risk exposure when the church had more social influence and that meant the persecution and even murder of those found out to be gay. The irony is that so many Christians used promiscuity and sexually transmitted diseases in the gay population as proof being gay is sinful when it only became prevalent because of the persecution and fear of gay people.
Those who condemn LGBT people are responsible for what they condemn LGBT people for.
Instead, it is the LGBT affirming teachings that bring about good by drawing LGBT people to Christ, empowering LGBT people to be open and honest about themselves, promoting monogamous and faithful relationships such as through the legalization of same-sex marriage, encouraging Christians to be more loving, and being honest about scripture. There is no good in lies, only in truth.
Conclusion
While some anti-LGBT Christians admit that people are born LGBT, they still deny it's part of God's plan, saying it's the result of sin entering the world. However, there is no biblical evidence for this and in fact it contradicts Jesus' teaching on differences from the norm not being the result of sin but of God's love and glory (John 9) and Paul's teaching that such things help glorify God (2 Corinthians).
It could easily be argued that heterosexuality and cisgender was God's original design for human kind, but the fact that we are not all perfect does not invalidate God's original design or make those who don't fit it sinners. For example, are people born with parts of both sexes (intersex people) sinners simply because they do not fit that perfect mold? Of course not. So why condemn people attracted to their own gender or who identify as another gender if they too never chose such things?
Christians who condemn LGBT people do not necessarily claim to hate them and some admit there is no direct evidence that being LGBT is wrong, only indirect appeals to "natural law" that being straight and cisgender is "normal", but they still ask what the harm is in condemning them.
The Bible is very clear that we will be judged by God based on how we treat others. In fact, that's stated as part of salvation. We're taught that helping others, welcoming them and not hypocritically judging them is how we will be seen to have treated Christ Himself.
Jesus Christ was incredibly clear that Christians must love everyone and hate no one and to treat everyone with kindness, even those who are considered "enemies". The famous teaching in the gospels to treat others as you would want to be treated rather than how you are treated is actually preceded by teaching to walk twice as far with someone than asked and give twice as much to everyone who asks, even also giving your shirt to someone who asks for your coat. A true follower of Christ would bake two wedding cakes for someone asking for one, not deny even the one. And, since Christ judges others by how they welcome strangers, they would welcome someone to use their own bathroom, not deny them from a public one.
For too long, many Christians have singled out LGBT people and held them to standards that they hold no one else to, especially not themselves. And then, when LGBT people leave their faith or kill themselves, they blame them rather than reflecting on their own harmful beliefs that are so clearly not God's will.
According to the Bible, not only is treating LGBT people any differently than non-LGBT people a sin, it's a grave sin. When discussing the topic of murder, Jesus teaches that someone who calls someone else worthless condemns himself and that someone who calls someone evil damns himself. The original Greek word used in Matthew 5 is the same used for the most grievous offenses. Yet many Christians condemn being LGBT as not part of God's plan, making their existence worthless and, more than that, call them "abominations" and "evil sinners". Thus, as Christ teaches, by the measure they judge others, they are also judged and condemned. If they sentence someone to hell and claim to speak for God, they actually sentence themselves (Matthew 7).
While only a small percentage of the population is LGBT, nearly half of all homeless youth are LGBT. If a Christian's response to finding out their child is LGBT is to disown them because of "the Bible's clear stance against it", not only are they demeaning their own children as an "it" instead of a person, but they are also defying the Bible's much clearer stance against their actions. 1 Timothy 5 says that if someone will not provide for members of his family, he has denounced his faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Jesus regularly condemned the hypocrisy of the religious majority of His time and yet the Christian religious majority of this time regularly fail to learn from their predecessors' failings. They hold LGBT people to standards that would anger them to be held to, from gang rape equalling consent to idolatry and prostitution equaling attractions or love. Christ could not have been clearer: Doing this is a great sin that condemns the person who does it.
But there is good news! No matter how anti-LGBT someone is or how much they commit blasphemy by claiming God hates LGBT people, God is willing to forgive them if they open their hearts to God's unconditional love through Christ. It begins and ends with love because God is love, so if you love everyone unconditionally, you have God within you. If not, it's never too late to change and become a follower of Christ.
No one is perfect and many Christians have been misled and honestly don't know they are being deceived or sinning against God and His creation, so LGBT Christians should forgive them with patience and love. People can change, learn and grow, with the help of the Spirit of God within them. Many already feel the tug on their hearts but are told by their church to ignore it. They are lied to by Christian leaders and told Satan is tricking them using love and compassion, something impossible according to the Bible because anyone who lacks love does not know God and anyone who knows love knows God (1 John). To lie and claim this is of Satan is obviously Satan's real work.
Even with the long history of constant negative attacks against God, love and biblical truth by anti-LGBT Christians, many Christians are still opening their hearts and many more already had them open, so acceptance of LGBT people as equal is destined to continue. Also, acceptance toward those Christians who support LGBT Christians as equal is destined to continue.
See, centuries ago, Christians slaughtered each other over variations in beliefs about when to baptize someone and yet today those who believe differently about baptism, which is an issue considered fundamental to the concept of salvation, can get along fine and rarely does anyone even consider this a huge dividing issue anymore the way they do being LGBT today. Therefore, this difference in how people view others based sexuality and gender, concepts that are not even salvation issues at all, will one day be seen as a minor issue that doesn't divide Christians any longer.
And, even if someone still believes marriage and sex was originally made by God for opposite sex couples or that people should not have sex change surgery because God intended them to be born one way or another, they can still learn that simply being LGBT is not a sin and that we are all individuals with special gifts from God and a unique path in life. It's not some choice, but how LGBT people live their lives and how they are treated is a choice.
Being LGBT is not a sin. Condemning LGBT people is a sin. But Christ forgives sin.
More on this topic:
A Non-Hypocritical Perspective: The Bible Condmens Homosexuals and Heterosexuals Equally (stamp)
Speak Truth In Love: Can Christians Be Loving and Oppose LGBT Rights? (essay)
People Are Born LGBT (stamp)
The Heterosexual Agenda: A Message To Christians About Homosexuals (essay)
Christianity Is About Love (stamp)
God Loves LGBT People And So Do Christians (essay)
Pro-LGBT Equality and Religious Freedom (stamp)
Love the Person, Forgive their Imperfections (stamp)
What Does the Bible Say About Homosexuality? (external link)
Related content
Comments: 939
LanaOnTheRoad In reply to ??? [2019-08-30 04:20:51 +0000 UTC]
This is actually very informative
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annathegurl In reply to ??? [2019-07-12 20:27:38 +0000 UTC]
Actually, according to the bible, being LGBTQ+ is considered a sin. Delete this now.
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FirebirdTransAm68 In reply to annathegurl [2019-07-28 15:42:21 +0000 UTC]
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Rogue-Ranger In reply to annathegurl [2019-07-28 06:39:58 +0000 UTC]
I'm sorry, but I won't delete this, but perhaps you can tell me where the Bible says being LGBTQ+ is considered a sin. I tried to be very thorough in addressing every argument in the description below the stamp, but I may have missed something and I'd like to know if that's the case.
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Alexiskuwata In reply to Rogue-Ranger [2020-10-14 03:33:12 +0000 UTC]
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FirebirdTransAm68 In reply to ??? [2019-07-11 06:23:16 +0000 UTC]
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Absolraider In reply to FirebirdTransAm68 [2020-12-01 03:33:18 +0000 UTC]
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FirebirdTransAm68 In reply to Absolraider [2020-12-01 05:54:58 +0000 UTC]
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Absolraider In reply to FirebirdTransAm68 [2020-12-01 15:11:26 +0000 UTC]
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FirebirdTransAm68 In reply to Absolraider [2020-12-02 03:49:31 +0000 UTC]
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Rogue-Ranger In reply to FirebirdTransAm68 [2019-07-28 06:40:36 +0000 UTC]
That's very true. I can't think of a case where genocide wouldn't be a sin.
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FirebirdTransAm68 In reply to Rogue-Ranger [2019-07-28 15:43:21 +0000 UTC]
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ShakeStarOwO In reply to ??? [2019-06-04 22:07:59 +0000 UTC]
Going down the comments i see alot of hate on you and The LGBTQ+ and its so funny how they took the time to acknowledge this just for hate! You dont deserve that! You deserve thanks and love for this amazing message you put out! Thank you and never let the darkness surround your light! <3
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Rogue-Ranger In reply to ShakeStarOwO [2019-06-05 00:22:45 +0000 UTC]
You're welcome and thank you for your kind words and encouragement. The one thing I've noticed that all the hateful or intolerant comments have in common is that none of those people read the description because they had no interest in understanding why they may be wrong.
Those feelings stem from ignorance. Once people get to know others and understand them, it's much harder to condemn them because they see we're all human. I just wish they would open their hearts and minds, but fortunately there are also a lot of other people who are willing to do just that. And that gives me hope.
Thank you again.
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ShakeStarOwO In reply to Rogue-Ranger [2019-06-05 02:08:47 +0000 UTC]
Your welcome! I just find it so frustrating that people would rather accept murder instead of love! You have my support and many others have yours! <3
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Aeonadan In reply to ??? [2019-06-04 13:34:04 +0000 UTC]
Thank you for this <3
Im not religious, but seeing someone who is be accepting is such a relief from stereotypes, thank you so much <3
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Rogue-Ranger In reply to Aeonadan [2019-06-05 00:17:29 +0000 UTC]
You're welcome and thank you for your kind words. I hope that one day that stereotype that religious people are anti-LGBT will be broken, especially for Christians, who should be following Christ's teachings.
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Meztli72 In reply to ??? [2019-04-13 17:21:31 +0000 UTC]
That's why I get nuts with those extremist, "fundamentalist" so-called "Christian" churches/sects (mainly from the Protestant tendency) claiming as biblical/scriptural truth that all those who don't believe in their claims will surely condemn themselves going to a literal, burning "hell" to burn for eternity after death.
That's not from any true, Loving God!!!
About biblical words about homosexuality: I've read that Bible condemns LBTG sexual intercourse, not being LGTB. As some people would say, God Loves the LGTB people, but don't support LGTB sexual acts.
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FirebirdTransAm68 In reply to Meztli72 [2019-07-28 15:46:02 +0000 UTC]
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Meztli72 In reply to FirebirdTransAm68 [2019-07-28 23:25:37 +0000 UTC]
Thanks for the clarification!!
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FirebirdTransAm68 In reply to Meztli72 [2019-07-30 00:35:45 +0000 UTC]
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Rogue-Ranger In reply to Meztli72 [2019-06-03 23:06:42 +0000 UTC]
I agree that there are quite a number of churches that spread a message of condemnation toward people who just happen to have different feelings than most people and that obviously that's not of God as God is love, but there are also a number of churches that welcome everyone to come just as they are.
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Meztli72 In reply to Rogue-Ranger [2019-06-05 03:49:27 +0000 UTC]
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dudiho In reply to Meztli72 [2019-05-06 23:03:47 +0000 UTC]
True. The LGBT are not a sin. It’s just their acts that are the real sin. God loves and forgives the sinners and only punishes their actions.
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Meztli72 In reply to dudiho [2019-05-09 05:42:00 +0000 UTC]
Of course!!
Unconditional (divine) Love doesn't interfere with "cause and effect": you do the wrong thing, you'll have to suffer the consequences, unless you repent from the heart (strive to follow God's/Divine laws).
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FanArtArtist1993 In reply to ??? [2019-03-11 22:06:59 +0000 UTC]
You can't be a Christian and support Satan doing that is a sin. LGBT people bullying people that are against them is a sin.
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makarosc In reply to FanArtArtist1993 [2020-12-01 04:59:38 +0000 UTC]
Yes because that's what the jews did to the Holy Roman Empire
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Rogue-Ranger In reply to FanArtArtist1993 [2019-03-26 03:05:06 +0000 UTC]
Can you please explain your comment? You're the second person to bring up Satan in a cryptic way and, while I asked the other person to explain, they never replied to me and yet came back here to agree with you, still without explaining.
Keep in mind that what may be obvious to you and this other person won't be obvious to everyone since we all think differently, so please be patient with me and explain so I understand. I'm not perfect, so I can make mistakes, but I need to understand what you're both trying to say.
As for LGBT people bulling others, obviously that's sinful because bullying is sinful, but being LGBT doesn't make someone a bully and this stamp talks about how LGBT people are condemned simply for being LGBT and why that condemnation is based on lies and prejudice and therefore wrong and so pushes people away from Christ and the Truth.
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FanArtArtist1993 In reply to Rogue-Ranger [2019-03-26 03:27:14 +0000 UTC]
There is actual religion that worships Satan called Satanism. It's quite popular religion. And worshiping Satan isn't Christian because Satan goes against everything that a Christian is. Satan is offensive to Christians. Satan hates Christians.
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sockythesocksman In reply to FanArtArtist1993 [2020-06-12 15:31:21 +0000 UTC]
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Rogue-Ranger In reply to FanArtArtist1993 [2019-03-26 03:38:53 +0000 UTC]
I understand this and agree that the two religion are incompatible, thank you. But, what does it have to do with what you commented on? I never mentioned satanism, so maybe you can understand why if be confused as to why two different people would bring it up?
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FanArtArtist1993 In reply to Rogue-Ranger [2019-03-26 11:35:29 +0000 UTC]
I thought you did mention Satanism.
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Rogue-Ranger In reply to FanArtArtist1993 [2019-03-27 05:33:01 +0000 UTC]
Okay, I'm still confused, but thank you for trying to help me to figure this out. Since I didn't talk about Satanism and yet both you and someone else commented as if I had in a way that even made it sound like I support it, I hope you can understand why I'd want to understand what's going on.
Here's what you commented on:
Here's your comment:
"You can't be a Christian and support Satan doing that is a sin. LGBT people bullying people that are against them is a sin."
www.deviantart.com/comments/1/…
This is the comment immediately before yours by someone else:
"I'm sorry but how the fuck you're gonna be a pro-life Christian & support Satan's agenda at the same time. (that shit don't fucking add up & it makes you look like a contradictory hypothetical manic)"
www.deviantart.com/comments/1/…
So, did you not read what I wrote and instead came to a conclusion based on what the previous person wrote in their comment (they obviously didn't read anything I said either)? Or, is there something you two can see that I can't, even when I try logging out to look at the stamp?
If it's the first option, then that's fine and we can just move on, but if it's the second option, I want to know what you two see so I can fix it.
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CleanClear777 In reply to FanArtArtist1993 [2019-03-17 01:10:00 +0000 UTC]
Hidden by Commenter
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CleanClear777 In reply to CleanClear777 [2019-03-22 11:55:09 +0000 UTC]
Thank you so much for saying that cause I'm calling out false Christians, Catholics, Jews, Mormons, Muslims, Sikhs out on their bullshits for straddling the fences & serving 4 beings-(God/Jesus & Satan/AntiChrist) at the same time.
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CleanClear777 In reply to ??? [2018-12-26 20:19:43 +0000 UTC]
I'm sorry but how the fuck you're gonna be a pro-life Christian & support Satan's agenda at the same time. (that shit don't fucking add up & it makes you look like a contradictory hypothetical manic)
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Rogue-Ranger In reply to CleanClear777 [2018-12-29 03:28:31 +0000 UTC]
Could you explain what you mean? This isn't one of my pro-life stamps (I can show you one if you're interested) and I'm not sure what you mean by supporting "Satan's agenda". Could you explain?
Also, does the use of bold and profanity mean you're upset? It's hard to tell someone's tone in writing, but I certainly don't want to upset you, so please let me know what's going on.
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EmpathicDesign In reply to ??? [2018-10-11 05:18:46 +0000 UTC]
How can a person be gay, bisexual, lesbian or transsexual if the person in question does not act upon their desires that gives these terms their context?
A murderer cannot be named as such without having taken a life.
A pilot cannot be named as such without commanding an aircraft.
For someone to be, let's say, gay, that person would need to apply the verb, not just the noun.
If such a person refers to themselves as "gay", that would imply sexual attraction towards the same sex, as everyone knows, and those attractions are sinful in nature and are tempting to the person in question to commit an immoral sin. The best course of action to take to avoid yielding into desire is to reject the sin and pray for it.
It is wiser to not refer to ones self as "gay" or any of the other abbreviations listed in the LGBT, and to take a non-binary description in regards to sexual and romantic desires to avoid the temptation that will lead to committing the sin, which will ultimately lead to death.
As a rule of safety, it is best to avoid any and all scenarios that will tempt the person into the sin of homosexuality; but instead, pray for the desires that will lead them astray and give themselves to God.
James 1:13 - 15 "When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."
1 John 5:18 "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them."
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Rogue-Ranger In reply to EmpathicDesign [2018-10-13 06:29:13 +0000 UTC]
I appreciate that you're trying to follow my previous request to make a single new comment here about this topic. I'll reply the same way I replied before, with your part in italics.
However, before I begin, I noticed that you removed the call-out section on your profile and so I'm hoping that means you'll be more open to my request this time:
I'd like to once again respectfully request that you either make your call-out stamp of me more generic by removing my stamps from the description, correct the description, or just remove the call-out stamp entirely.
I have made no call-outs of you. I only commented on that one stamp of yours because it was about me and have commented on no others of yours. Because of that stamp, I was blocked by one of my favorite stamp artists, permanently removing all her stamps from my collection. You still haven't changed the description to remove the false information about me that you wrote back when you were trolling me, leaving all those insults and false accusations across my stamps and trying to bully me out of being Christian. And, every time someone sees the stamp and asks you about what happened, you have not told them the whole truth but interjected false statements, maybe just because you remember incorrectly.
I did not initiate any of this and had to beg you just to stop since you know I never block anyone. You never once apologized. Since this comment of yours means you obviously want to continue our discussion, I feel this small request is the very least you can do. Thank you in advance.
And now for the reply:
How can a person be gay, bisexual, lesbian or transsexual if the person in question does not act upon their desires that gives these terms their context?
The short answer is that words exist that distinguish certain differences, so those people with those differences use those words.
This may be confusing if you've never had to stop and think deeply about what you feel because those feelings are so common, like how I never questioned being male, so I never had to stop and wonder what I am and look for a word like transgender to describe myself. It just never came up in my personal identity. So, I'll try to simplify it:
Words help people communicate ideas and humans are linguistic beings. When someone realizes they are different than most people around them, they naturally look for a way to articulate that. Labels like gay, bi, lesbian, trans, ace, etc exist already and have the meaning specifically associated with how they feel.
For example, gay people are attracted exclusively to members of their sex, so someone attracted exclusively to members of their sex may identify as gay for this obvious reason. Asexuals have no physical attractions, so someone with no physical attractions may identify as asexual (or ace for short) for that obvious reason. The words and meaning for what they feel already exists. People then use the words that exist because of how they feel. That's simple, right?
A murderer cannot be named as such without having taken a life.
A pilot cannot be named as such without commanding an aircraft.
For someone to be, let's say, gay, that person would need to apply the verb, not just the noun.
How would you use gay as a verb? "I like to gay. I was out gaying the other day and then I gayed some more." Maybe you don't mean verb. Gay people are attracted to members of their own sex just as straight people are attracted to members of the opposite sex. There's no connection to murderers or pilots, so naturally the same word usage would not apply.
If such a person refers to themselves as "gay", that would imply sexual attraction towards the same sex, as everyone knows, and those attractions are sinful in nature and are tempting to the person in question to commit an immoral sin. The best course of action to take to avoid yielding into desire is to reject the sin and pray for it.
The short answer is there's no evidence simply having different attractions is sinful and we all need to avoid sin equally.
People don't choose their attractions. I support being open and honest with ones feelings, not deny them or pretend they don't exist. If someone feels attractions to their own sex and articulates that by saying they're gay, I applaud them being honest.
Everyone has desires. Temptations aren't sins, or else Christ sinned when He was tempted and He was tempted but did not sin.
Being straight doesn't make someone sin, so why would being gay make someone sin? It doesn't. Some people of any sexual orientation sleep around, are monogamous, rape others, or are celibate. Attractions aren't actions. Deliberately blanketing sin for this one specific group of people comes from a belief that being gay is sinful, which as we both know I disagree with.
It is wiser to not refer to ones self as "gay" or any of the other abbreviations listed in the LGBT, and to take a non-binary description in regards to sexual and romantic desires to avoid the temptation that will lead to committing the sin, which will ultimately lead to death.
The short answer is that labeling one's feelings doesn't make someone sin, so people should be honest and truthful with what they feel and admit they're tempted like everyone else.
Given how many different words for sexualities and genders seem to pop up on the internet from time to time, maybe there are words for each type of person with desires they don't act on, but I'm not familiar with them. I have nothing against someone who rejects any labels, so long as they don't pretend to be something they know they're not, like a gay person pretending to be straight to please others.
For now, words exist and so people use them. Gay doesn't imply if or how someone acts on their feelings anymore than straight implies if or how someone acts on their feelings. Those words are for sexual orientations. We have other words for sexual actions, such as abstinent, celibate, promiscuous, monogamous, etc.
Anything apart from God is sin and leads to death, but Christ is the way to life. I would simply disagree that every desire or action is innately sinful simply because of the sex of the people involved.
Think of it like how the Jews considered eating certain foods sinful and Christ had to explain that it's what comes out of us that defiles us. If you recall, He mentioned sexual sins in that very explaination. God already overcame sin through Christ, so He makes things pure, not us. When He told Peter not to call unclean what He made clean, we see that illustrated in Peter's refusal to listen at first because he so strongly believed what he'd been taught was moral and immoral.
Consider this: Even a monogamous marriage between two people of the opposite sex may not be God's will for us, as we saw it wasn't God's will for Paul or the eunichs Christ spoke of. That means that relationship would not be God's will for those specific people even though humans may claim it's blessed by God. Similarly, humans may call a relationship between two people of the same sex sinful that God has made as pure as the food He offered Peter. That's why prayer, Bible study and getting to know people is far more effective at knowing God's will than making blanket assumptions about what's God's will for everyone.
As a rule of safety, it is best to avoid any and all scenarios that will tempt the person into the sin of homosexuality; but instead, pray for the desires that will lead them astray and give themselves to God.
The short answer is that we should all avoid temptation and give ourselves to God, but we should make sure we pray that His will be done and accept it rather than feel rejected if we pray to be straight and that doesn't happen because it's not God's will.
Most LGBT people were raised religious, specifically Christian where I live in the US. Even without that, there are a great many social pressures saying those feelings are unnatural or wrong. That means that it's very common for people to try very hard and desperately pray to be made "normal." Exodus International made conversion therapy a worldwide phenomenon and yet they eventually closed their doors because most people didn't change, especially men, as male sexuality isn't as fluid as female sexuality.
Because they believed no one could be Christian unless they were straight, they fell for the lie that having different attractions than average would inevitably become a "sinful lifestyle." They saw everyone as innately heterosexual and so anyone else needing to be "fixed." So, they gave them false hope and people prayed and prayed and tried everything to change but God only changed a tiny handful and all the rest were left feeling either abandoned by God or like their faith was fake. It didn't help that they also fell for the lie that sexual orientation doesn't have a biological source and so believed all kinds of things, like parents "messed up" raising their kids, which tore so many families apart with guilt and resentment. No good ever comes from living in lies, no matter how convincing they may seem.
These beliefs that Christians must be straight and that someone must be to blame for not everyone being straight have led to most gay people leaving the faith they grew up in, which of course is Satan's goal, not God's, and why these kinds of false beliefs and lies are so dangerous. You can't lead someone to salvation with false promises and lies. For most gay people, God doesn't take away their feelings, but that doesn't mean He abandoned them and we need to let them know this truth. Maybe they prayed all their life, since they first noticed as a small child, but sometimes God answers prayers with a no so we can fulfill part of His plan, whether in how we live or in how we grow from the experience.
As a fellow Christian, you know we all have desires apart from God's will, so we all need to relent our will for His. This is not some sexual orientation issue, so let's not pretend it is. Coming to God through Christ is the only way to avoid temptation, as we need the Holy Spirit in us. We can't just try to avoid situations by hiding. It won't work. That's why I constantly try to shift the focus toward God, Christ and His Spirit rather than just focusing on things on the flesh like sexual orientations.
You have your beliefs about what is moral and I have mine, but ultimately it's what God wants for us that matters. As someone who has been called not to follow the usual marriage, sex and procreation model, I can attest to the fact that God's will is not the same for everyone. I believe we should respect that and walk with people in their walk with Christ, rather than tell them how to live and what God wants for them without even really understanding their specific circumstances.
In the end, being LGBT won't separate anyone from God. Even if you believe same-sex relationships are sinful (as you do), that still isn't what separates people from God. Not coming to Christ does that. Let's not pretend God forgot to add an exemption to the Bible just because there's such a long history of twisting scripture to single out certain people and push them away from God. We're Christians. Let's speak truth in love.
James 1:13 - 15 "When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."
The short response is I agree and neither of us claimed God tempts anyone. That's why we need to relent our will for God's to avoid temptation.
This reminds me that I was thinking about making something about the sadly common belief that it's God who places temptation and then He who punishes us for our sins. I'd like to show that sin is its own punishment. Death is the natural inevitable fruit of sin. God is the One who saves us from our sins through Christ.
In the context of this stamp, it's no different for any sexual orientation or gender identity. Straight people are tempted. Gay people are tempted. Even asexual people are tempted by something. That's why we all need Christ, without exception. But you're assuming that being gay is somehow different. As I show in this stamp's description, that belief is based on generations of prejudice, hypocrisy and deliberate lies, not truth.
Let's say you meet a woman and fall in love. Is that a temptation? If you met a man and fell in love, is that a temptation? The circumstances are the same. Only the sex of the person is different. Yet the Bible is clear it's what we are tempted toward that matters, not what particular source it is, man or woman. We could be tempted by a donut. The source is not the sin. Does that make sense?
Now, if you believe sex with someone of the same sex is wrong or God has specifically told you that's not for you, just don't do it and instead lean on God and His Spirit will guide you. It's not complicated so long as you've completed the first and most important step in coming to Christ.
I mean, look at me. I was a super horny teenager who would never in a million years have imagined I'd become a celibate adult, but that's the power of God in my life, allowing me to grow in love, which always overpowers lust. If He can do that for me, He can keep others monogamous or whatever He calls them to. But coming to God through Christ must come first.
1 John 5:18 "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them."
Since I don't believe sexual orientations are sins, I don't see the connection here, but since this verse is often taken out of context to promote the false doctrine of sinless perfectionism, I'd like to briefly put it back in context:
Earlier in 1 John:
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word is not in us.
The verses immediately before what you quoted:
16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
We all sin, gay, straight, bi, trans, ace, everyone. That's why we need Christ. There's no special rules for people with different labels. We're all equal. People just single those out who happen to be different from them. I'm obviously against that.
Since the only way to claim the Bible condemns people for being gay, bi, lesbian, trans, ace, etc is to take scripture out of context, change the meaning of scripture (as many translations already do), or lie about scripture, and these deceptions result in people turning away from God, I believe it is not of God and should be avoided. Even if it angers people to hear the truth, I'd rather be honest than accepted.
On much of this, I think we disagree, but I hope we can at least understand where each other is coming from.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
EmpathicDesign In reply to Rogue-Ranger [2018-10-27 17:57:02 +0000 UTC]
Forgive my tardy reply, I am grieving the loss of a parent.
Also, If I have come across as answering twice or myself, it is because I have made errors in my rebuttal as my text document wrote in places outside my intentions, so I apologize for any confusion.
I will proceed;
I feel that you're just not interested in my reply to your request, which not only did I acknowledge, reference and reply too, but for reasons I cannot understand, you seem uninterested in acknowledging.
From here on out, I will no longer be discussing the matter of your request, and whatever due hardships or issue that incur against you are not, nor will be any concern of mine.
I have made my position clear, repeatedly, and since you seem uninterested in my reply, or perhaps it is not the reply you want, this section of the conversation is dealt with, and will no longer be discussed.
You disagreement is noted, but discarded as it is redundant, irrelevant and unchanging to the matter who which has been discussed.
Perhaps you enjoy the diversity in wording and terms, and yet what they are and represent is unchanging, so if you have an issue with them, or a disagreement, you will have to deal with that. The dictionary doesn't change based upon a disagreement.
Are you right to assume that the paragraphs are used to back me up? Do you use scripture to present context to your own points?
Are you saying Christians should ignore parts of the Bible because they disagree with them? It sounds to me that you're suggesting that if something is questionable to the reader, then they have the right to reject scripture? By making this suggestion, I assume you are suggesting this as possible, even allowable?
It seems you do not understand Levitical Law, the Torah, perhaps the Gospels too. It also seems you're unaware of whom these verses applied to at the time of their revelation, but thank you for referencing The Torah, as it seems you feel that Christians like myself and others should impose upon others, even non-believers.
Luke 6:31 - "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
Questioning God's Word as a temporary matter is very selective of the sources you choose.
Thank you for showing your defiance of Christian Scripture.
Not at all. There is no problem, nor a slippery slope; the problem is that apparently you seem to feel it acceptable to question God's Law, as though it can be followed and rejected at will. There is no sense in this, and there is no context being ignored. The problem is that you assume there is one when there is not. God's Word is not questionable, it does not appease of work to the desires of others, and if you feel there is an issue, pray on it, or choose another ideology, but please stop diminishing the authority of the Scripture, that much is childish.
Not at all. The Bible says what it says, and you disagree, so you have an issue with the Bible, and are appealing to corruption to avoid the condemnation in these scriptures. As I have stated before, these corruptions do not exists; not to the scholars, the theologians and the ancient historians, but you continue to force and empty appeal that does not exists, nor has it ever. An act of desperation, and one that I pity highly.
I have no concern for your skepticism. I say what is presented before, I recite what I am told. If what I say is false, then the source of information is false. If you say that I speak falsely, then you have spoken falsely, and to me and to all that I have spoken to, you own an apology for deception.
No, I have not wondered. I have no opinions of my own, all the information I speak is a recitation with no subjectivity or prejudice. Truth is objective, and for someone as subjective as yourself to make another subjective appeal raises a red flag that your testimony is built on bias, and as so, cannot be trusted, as you're emotionally compromised, skepticism is a mercy, one I feel that you do not deserve.
Thank you for confirming that homosexuality is a sin.
I do not believe that is why you disagree. I believe you disagree because you're a homosexual.
As a homosexual, you are aware that other homosexuals are prejudice against religion, in particular, and there is no reason why you would be no different.
I know of a former homosexual, here on DeviantART in fact, who has rejected homosexuality as a whole. A whole. Someone who does not incorporate anything remotely homosexual into their life, but accepts God's Mercy and compassion and now fights against the sin of homosexuality. My question is, why aren't you? Why do you continue to defend homosexuality, yes, homosexuality, not just homosexuals, who are the primary advocates for the sin of homosexuality?
That is not true, you said that Jesus was tempted because you did not read the whole scripture, but perhaps you just do not understand that Christ IS God, and God cannot be tempted.
If Jesus CAN be tempted, then He is 100% human. Jesus is the Word of God in human flesh. By stating that Jesus could be tempted, you directly called Christ man and not God.
Not at all. I call one a sin because it's a sin. Is purchasing food a sin? No. Is stealing food a sin? Yes. The distinction is that one is a sin, and the other is not. Your elaboration is irrelevant.
What if God does not want someone to marry? That is God's Will. What is your issue with the will of God?
If two men should die because that is God's will, then the two men should die. Are you saying you disprove of God's will? It seems that you are trying to loophole the Word of God to appease and appeal to your subjective understanding of Christian Scripture. Christ told His disciples to purchase swords to defend themselves; and if they have no sword, sell their garments to purchase one.
That is not true. Your position is to conflate all sin together, and rather than acknowledging that certain matters are sinful, all is sin is sin so there can be no judging, no discrimination, and ultimately no acknowledgement of the independence of the sin in question. It is simple as "If I am wrong, you are wrong too, and all are wrong also". Call it passing the buck, a destiny bond, or just roping everyone together, it is what it is, and that is what your position is. It takes the spotlight off you and puts it on everyone to avoid being singled out.
That is also not true, and you are once again running away from the fact that homosexuality is a sin. The sex is important; the sex determines if the actions are a sin or not. Sexual relations with between two people of the same sex is sinful. Sexual relations between two of the opposite sex is not. Simple. in.married, unmarried, courting, engaged in an open relationship, monogamous or polygamous relationship, all sexual relations between two people of the same sex is a sin. That's the end of it.
That is a lie; it was you that alluded to punishments of death as an appeal and rebuttal, several times in fact, not me.
My position is that sexual relationships between two people of the same sex is a sin. As is written in the Bible. That is my position, the rest is your own invention.
We are discussing sexual relationships, which blissfully you have finally confirmed as sinful. Of course I do not need or desire this confirmation from you, I just want to see if you will.
I call something simple when the implications and context are obvious, apparent and require no commentary to be understood. For reasons beyond me, this seems to be beyond you too.
You do believe it's simple? That confirms everything I said formerly, and I guess there is authority after all. Thanks!
Do I have to read the Bible to you? This is becoming embarrassing, and considering the former statement affirms your ability to understand scripture, even find it simple.
The verses in question are the ones I have provided. Perhaps you could explain how they are wrong?
But How do I, or anyone for that matter, know that you are being lead by God and not lying? The latter makes the most sense and your appeal and position is a rejection of Scripture, repeatedly. I question if you lie intentionally about being guided by God. To date, I have not held these concerns for any Christian at all. Just you, and that is suspicious.
I do not make sexual comments about other women; if you cannot understand objective critique, it raises the question if you should be using a site dedicated purposely for art.
I used polygamy as an example of sin in a relationship; just as homosexuality is sinful. Heterosexual is not. I am sorry you did not understand that.
Well actually that is exactly in the ball park of your point, and if you disagree, to you own it is. The only non-sinful relationship is between man and woman, as is my point, and confirmed by you.
Thank you for proving my point; that rather than directly affirming your homosexuality, you allude to direct confirmation, and that it took time to have these confirmations spoken. Thank you.
If you had been open and honest from the very beginning, and said that you have sexual desires for the same sex but refrain from sexual relations all together, this discussion would not have needed to take place.
The fact that it did means you have only yourself to blame, and the fact that up to now it is still being discussed, is something that could have been prevented if you had been forward and honest from the first discussion.
Not to be brash, but you just gave me an extract that shows that that you took time to reveal this rather incriminating testimony.
I do not believe a homosexual is someone who has same sex attractions, because that is what it is. My beliefs are irrelevant; and a someone who has homosexual attractions but is celibate is still a homosexual.
Since you have already affirmed your homosexuality, but also affirmed a choice to remain celibate, you have all together affirmed only what needs to be affirmed; though your celibacy is in question as your gallery contains images of a homosexual nature that says that although you are clearly still sexual interested in men, you have put forth no effort to deter yourself from sexual attractions to others; instead, by fantasizing homosexual relations between heterosexual men (which is quite disrespectful), it shows that you have not attempted celibacy, regardless if you have avoid sexual contact with others. You continue to humor sexual and romantic desires between others. Perhaps you should have sexual relationships with others, but of course, you know this would immediately condemn you as homosexuality is sinful.
You say you present proof but you do not. You continue to say that it is me that is lying, but you present no proof; additionally, you then mirror my own rebuttal and make the same claims against me. This is childish and I expect better than this. As someone who does not justify my position, against someone who does and even appeals to scriptural corruption, you have made your position very flimsy and open to doubt, which I do, and have always.
Why should I praise you? If a person has desires to commit robbery but does not, but continues to engage his fantasies through false/ disrespectful fantasies, then you have not given up on your desires, and they are not decreasing.
I will be very open and honest: In my youth I had deep issues with pornography, but I have left them alone and abandoned them all together. I do not watch lewd or illicit content, instead I avoid all content that contains sexual imagery, I do not gaze upon the bodies or make remarks about other women, I do not endulge the thought of pornographic imagery, and I in fact debate with others that pornography is abhorrent, degrading, immoral and destructive to relationships. Can you say you have done the exact same, and just as much in regards to your own homosexuality, and that there is absolutely no justifying, no excuse or reason to ever indulge homosexuality, whether for the sake of fantasies, sexual relationships and romantic relationships, but they are all equally sinful; one tempting the other, a shadow of the other that will open the door to sin unless it is completely abandoned utterly and with nothing related remaining in your life? I have. Have you?
My grandfather who was a Christian Pastor was a widower and remarried.
My mother and father separated on grounds of irreconcilable differences and remarried.
1 Corinthians 7:39 "A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord."
Unfortunately, you're defending homosexuals in a position that which they are mutually exclusive too. Homosexual romance and relationships are not recognized nor sanctified. They are not condoned, and yet you force me to view them as though they are one in the same and can be treated equally when they cannot.
What your concern here is nothing more than than homosexual Christians are treated differently. That's all. Here is the truth: Christians should love everyone equally, BUT, they should also help each other with their struggles and turmoil, which includes homosexuality. If a Christian tries to help, but the homosexual rejects the help and continues to live in sin, then they condemn themselves, but the Christian who rended assistance is not held accountable as they acted Godly. I am sure you will not object.
The same effort to assist but also the same right to reject those that force poisonous lifestyles into the Church.
I see an irony in your claim of "not what you personally don't like." Do you like homosexuality, not homosexuals to be specific? Do you condemn homosexuality as the Scripture does, homosexuals not acknowledged.
If the Bible says something is sinful, then it's sinful; and you haven't proven that I have taken verses out of context, because I have not taken any out of context. You are the one that said Scripture has to be taken out of context, and yet no one says that the verses that condemn homosexuality are any less than verses that condemn homosexuality. This means only you are taking these verses out of context. I am not doing this, my wife is not doing this, my pastors and the churches I have attended are not doing thing, nor is my stepfather who is a Minister for a Presbeterian Church and a Scholar of Christianity and has been so for more than 40 years. So I am sorry to say this, but you're on your own.
"male sexuality isn't as fluid as female sexuality". So do you resent women who are more capable to be fluid and flexible with their sexuality?
So whom do you disprove of: Christianity or man?
"God only changed a tiny handful". So you resent God for not changing you? This is your appeal, one made on resentment based upon the accusors.
I have found that the people who have abandoned homosexuality altogether become the greater Christians and Evangilists.
I do not believe you gave everything to God. If this is true, then there would be absolutely no sign, no trace of your homosexuality; instead if there was, there would be public condemnation of it as there is with other homosexuals; but you have not done this. You have done the very opposite: You create submissions depicting false, disrespectful homosexual attractions between straight men, created submissions depicting men without clothes and the label "Hot Guys" (Which shows you still humor and interest in men, deliberately), and there is absolutely nothing that condemns homosexuality. Nothing. Instead, you claim that the verses that condemn homosexuality are interpreted through rejection of context and corruption of text; which no one is actually interpreting them as such. Just you. When God's Word is this clear, this simple to understand, and everyone whom reads these Scriptures are all interpreting the same message, except you, then it is you that is saying God's word is corrupted, and you're calling God a liar, otherwise you must call me and everyone else a Liar. If we are all wrong and spreading falsehoods, then call us liars, and set us all straight and tell us the true meaning of the verses that condemn homosexuality which no one is interpreting the same as you. I will wait, though I know you will never fulfill this request as it is impossible.
So you accuse God of creating within you a temptation to commit the sin of homosexuality?
James 1:13-18 - When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters.
Your homosexuality is your own creation, your own fault, and the blame belongs only to you. God did not make you gay, He did not put a temptation within you that would lead you do death through sin. It is more your fault than His. Please do not insult my God.
God does not require great faith from us.
Matthew 17:20 "He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.” "
You simply lack faith is all.
OK. I will address what I have missed:
How do you know being LBGT will not separate them from God?
I do not believe same-sex relationships are sinful, they are. God says they are, so they are. You refuse to believe this because it condemns you and reject these scriptures and call the interpretations corruptions. Cowardice and blasphemy.
I speak truth out of love, even if it hurts others.
I want you to abandon your homosexual desires, just as God does, it is you that refuses.
The simple reason I talk about your sexual desires is because you continue to lie to people that homosexuals and homosexuality are acceptable and not condemn, when they are. You tell me this is something I believe in, when it's confirmed in the Bible. So it's not my beliefs but your rejection of the Bible. You either accept the Bible as a whole, or not. If you are not willing to accept your own short comings and that you may be condemned, hen you are not ready to call yourself a Christian, so please stop telling others these lies that homosexuality is not sinful when the Bible affirms it is. Repeatedly. Thank you.
Then why have you not removed these images that you submitted? Are you not aware that you are tempting the desires and lust of others by keeping them there?
Are you aware that you are sharing and encouraging false and disrespectful fantasies with the images you have created in your Power Rangers section?
I am willing to remove all images that are lewd and inappropriate in my gallery; I am not hypocrite, but will you do the same?
I quoted verses that condemn homosexuality, and so far they're the only one's that are apparently taken out of context or been subjected to scriptural corruption. Very convenient for you, a homosexual.
But I do not care what you believe; that is irrelevant. What matters is what God says is and is not sinful, and homosexuality is sinful, and to this date, you fight and combat against me and this point , but you haven't proven me wrong by showing any verse that homosexuality IS condoned in any form. You cannot, and that is why you will not. So unfortunately, that is exactly how things work. If you don't like what God says, find a different religion, and stop lying and degrading mine with your subjective and selective views.
Why do you care what each and individual Church believes in; that is not even relevant, and in fact, speaking in tongues is in the Scriptures.
1 Corinthians 1:5 - "For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge"
Acts 2:4 - "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them."
Acts 19:6 - "When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied."
You have nothing of relevance to say here, you are appealing to man and their inconsistency whilst demonstrating your own.
It doesn't matter if Christians disagree, no Christian has the right to disagree with the Bible. Period. If you do, then you disagree with God, and you are not a Christian, jsut as you do by continuously rejecting all the verses that condemn homosexuality.
Of course, we can both be wrong, but what is wrong, you or I, or the scripture? I repeat what is in the Scripture, and the Scripture condemns homosexuality, and you disagree with me and then claim the Bible is being taken out of context (when you have not explained the apparently corrupted context).
Of course, I am sure you have a god, but not the God of Jacob, Isaac and Joseph; who's words condemn homosexuality, which to date you still refuse to acknowledge as perfect in their doctrine but as contextual and scriptural corruptions. Imagine how patronized God must feel to have someone who calls themselves a follower of Christ but calls corruption on His word. His word. Very convenient.
I do not condemn you, I condemn your actions and your desires which you defend and have not relinquished, even though you say you have. Your stamps and Power Ranger submissions tell a very different story.
Tell me, why do you think God will condone you for romanticizing heterosexual men in a fictional, homosexual fantasy of yours? Scriptures as evidence if you please.
The fruits of a monogamous homosexual relationship is an abomination.
Matthew 7:15-20 - “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn-bushes or figs from thistles?Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."
Romans 1:26-28 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done."
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
They are condemned for for their abominable practices; this is them turning away from The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
You should know better.
Because someone who has sexual relations with the same sex has created an abomination.
Someone who has sexual relations with the opposite sex will create new life.
The practices leading to sexual relationships matter to avoid sin for heterosexuals; but for homosexuals, avoiding any and all relations with the same sex that is both romantic and sexual is imperitive to avoid sin.
It is a loss/loss for homosexuals, regardless. Therefore I don't have to pretend, this is part of the Christian Doctrine, and your disagreement is with God, not me. Sort it out before spreading more rhetoric.
Very simple: You have been confused about the verses that condemn homosexuality; instead of support the scripture, you appealed to scriptural and contextual corruption where none exist, nor have they been created by others.
Of course. With your understanding, please explain this verse for me:
Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."
You said: "You follow a verse about a husband and wife becoming one flesh with a verse about the sins of the flesh that doesn't mention anything you talked about. Do you think you'd believe these verses make your point if you didn't already believe your point?".
I said: "There is however a difference: the desire for heterosexual companionship is not sinful. It's condoned by God. The desire for homosexual companionship is sinful, and is condemned by God.
Genesis 2:24 "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh."
Galatians 5:19-21 "The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Well, I spoke about heterosexual relations being condoned, and homosexual relations being condemned, as the verses shows the relations between man and women and not man and man or woman and woman.
They not only made my point, they confirm, along with many others, that heterosexual is condoned, homosexuality is condemned, which is pretty much the core of my entire discussion.
The great thing is is that, I don't have to prove my point; I say what God says and God's Word either confirms or rejects my position. Fortunately, the verses confirm everything I have said, and not to sound arrogant by saying that, but I say that because my appeal is the Scriptures; not my own understanding, so I cannot be accused of any subjectivity, especially when my source of Information is from God alone. But of course, I am sure you will object and continue to fight back habitually.
You appeals are insulting to the Word of God, but I will repair the damage you have knitted:
1 Samuel 18:1-2: The context, is friendship.
1 Samuel 20:41-42: The context, is friendship.
2 Samuel 1:25-26: The context, Brotherly love.
Daniel 1:19 - "The king talked with them, and he found none equal to Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah; so they entered the king's service." Wrong Scripture perhaps?
Matthew 8:13: What is your issue with this Centurion?
Of course, and the desires of homosexual flesh is sinful, as are the actions; married or not.
Yes, I will in fact not do that as I have not ever done that, nor would I do that because I do not appeal to contextual and scriptural corruption, as when God calls an action a sin, it is a sin. Perhaps you should take your own advice?
You said: "You believe all romantic and sexual activity between people of the same sex is sinful and I should agree with you because you find it simpler to believe that. You'll have to explain further."
I believe you wrote not to long again in this same rebuttal that you could interpret the Scriptures; why must I now explain them to you? Are you lying about your competency?
Sure. Does the Bible condemn homosexuality? Is sex between two people of the same sex a sin? Very simple yes or no.
No, I did not miss your point or you would have pointed out what it is. I answered you in full and you did not reject it, refute it or disagree. Which means you support it.
There are elaborations about a desire to eat doughnuts, none which are relevant but none that which you reference to doughnuts are false either.
It actually does matter; if a man desires a women, he should marry:
1 Corinthians 7:9 - "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
But what is the lust for men between men:
Romans 1:26-28 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
So, all in all, it does matter, it matters completely.
I said: "Perhaps, but who is to say that God has willed you to remain gay?"
You said: "God."
If God does not tempt us, why accuse God of being the one who made you gay? That means God put the temptation of homosexual sin within your heart, and that is a violation of the Scripture, and as I know God did not create this violation, then this is your accusation, and your sin to repent.
You said: "Homosexuality is not the sin anymore than heterosexuality is the sin when people have sex before marriage or divorce and remarry".
Thank you. Sex before marriage is sinful, as is adulterous remarrying and divorce, which says perfectly that if these are the same as homosexuality, then they're all sinful, making homosexuality sinful. BUT, marriage is not sinful, nor is righteous divorce and remarrying. Thank you for affirming that homosexuality is, once again, sinful.
Why is your celibacy important? How do you know that God called you to celibacy; He did not create you or call you to homosexuality, especially to defend the sin, so how do you know? Your claim is full of conjecture.
I see you as someone who selective spins Scripture to his advantage whilst rejecting the context, and the whole verses all together in fact. And of course, I say that based on the fact that only the verses (according to you) that are being contextually corrupted are the one's on homosexuality; and yet nothing, nothing at all to do with Mercy, Compassion, Kindness, not a single verse from Danial or Samuel, nothing to do with Christ's love is corrupted. Not a single one. How very, very ironic.
Does God call you to flee from homosexual romance?
Can you prove he doesn't as you have taken the homosexual position.
So how do you explain to the LGBT that the Bible directly condemns homosexuality as an abomination, and that their desires and actions are disgraceful and that their relations are not natural ones?
Apart from the scripture affirming my point, but perhaps you forgot what section we were discussing. Moving forward.
You said: "Neither heterosexuality nor homosexuality are either condemned or condoned in the Bible."
That is a lie. That is a complete lie in fact, and I shall use the Bible to expose this lie and that heterosexuality and homosexuality are mutually exclusive and that heterosexuality is condoned and homosexuality is condemned.
Heterosexuality:
Malachi 2:14-15: “But you say, 'Why does he not?' Because the LORD was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant."
Ephesians 5:25: “For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church. He gave up his life for her."
Genesis 2:22-24 - "Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.” That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
Proverbs 30:18-19: “There are three things that amaze me—no, four things that I don't understand: how an eagle glides through the sky, how a snake slithers on a rock, how a ship navigates the ocean, how a man loves a woman."
1 Peter 3:7: “In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat your wife with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your equal partner in God's gift of new life. Treat her as you should so your prayers will not be hindered."
Proverbs 5:18-19 - "May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. A loving doe, a graceful deer— may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be intoxicated with her love."
Proverbs 12:4 "A wife of noble character is her husband’s crown, but a disgraceful wife is like decay in his bones."
Proverbs 18:22 - "He who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the LORD."
Homosexuality:
Romans 1:26-28 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done."
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."
There is absolutely no denying or confusion that heterosexuality and homosexuality are treated and viewed differently, but I understand your bitterness and jealousy that comes wishing to be one of those that is not condemned for their sexual preference. Please understand that I do not judge you for this. Moving forward.
What must I deny? The verse condemns you. If you reject that, then you are in denial, and you rejected the truth. It's rather pitiful and tactless that you would attempt such a disgraceful and deceptive trick, but I understand that you are desperate and the Bible is no longer your support or your friend, especially like a beating drum, over and over, it condemns you. After all, you would have explained yourself, but you didn't, and you have not, and you will never do so, not for this scripture, not for any scripture that condemns you. What a tragedy.
Condemned, that was indeed the word I meant. I appreciate the correction.
Apart from the verses that condemn homosexuality? As the Bible is my appeal, the Bible is what condemns you. If you reject that, then admit you reject the Bible.
How very unfortunate that you are electing to ignore the verses that are condemning you. What a tragedy.
Please copy and paste each verse I have submitted, and then explain them, so there is no confusion. If you can.
Of course so. Of course I have come to those conclusions. Virtually everyone has come to the exact same conclusion, it is bizaarly only you that has not; but as a homosexual, prejudice is a key factor for your rejection. A bias.
You also said directly that to interpret that homosexuality is sinful is through contextual and scriptural corruption. So forgive me, and this is very funny for me, the circular argument was created by you, who made this claim, and whom only made and has upheld this claim. You made this confusing, circular argument and it is your responsibility to repair it. After all, if you make the appeal, the burden of truth is upon you to prove your claims. So, prove the contextual and scriptural corruptions, otherwise you are lying. But you are desperate after all, so I will be patient with you.
I am laughing now. You haven't shown me anywhere that I have twisted scripture; not one reference or verse, only the claims that I have, but when I presented Leviticus, you immediately claimed contextual and scriptural corruption. As the one whom made the claim of corruption, the burden of proof is on you to show this, not on me who says the scripture says what it says. I haven't seen this much shamelessness since I witnessed debates with Muslims. Perhaps you are practicing Taqiyya.
Of course, you said you were against twisting scripture, and yet you claimed my claim to Leviticus could interpret homosexuality as sinful only through contextual and scriptural corruption. You made that claim, but you didn't show how. You never presented any proofs, any witnesses of the corruption during the scribing, you didn't show any kind of evidence that shows the interpretation can only be a coorruption to condemn homosexuality, you have shown me nothing, and that is because you have nothing. You know that there is not corruption, but out of desperation and prejudice in defense of your sexual preference that is being condemned, you are desperately claiming to corruption to avoid any further confrontation. Why can you not just open and honest with me, as you have always, from day one, wished between us? Why can you not come forward and say that it brings you displease to be viewed as an abomination before God, and that the Scriptures upset you? I wont judge you, I came here for truth, so please, For the sake of what is righteous and proper, be honest and stop making impossible and shameful appeals where it suits you most.
You have feelings, but It's very clear that you feel no shame or guilt in calling for non-existent corruptions when a scripture condemns you, and as such, I have no need to empathize with you; you are not a victim, you are uninjured and not being bullied. You are not in a position of weakness, nor are you being mistreated, degraded, belittled or discriminated. Rather, the Bible has taken a terrible beating from you, and with it I feel deep sorrow.
This is beneath you, but I deeply look forward to your next reply regardless!
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