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AlmudenaDoncelArt — Existence
Published: 2012-01-15 16:47:28 +0000 UTC; Views: 10993; Favourites: 858; Downloads: 94
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Description
1) Sorry I can't reply to all, but thank you everybody for all your favs and comments! I'm so glad you like my work
2) You can give your own opinion, but please, be respectful with the others. Free insulting won't give more power to your arguments.
Thanks
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Comments: 375
hey I'll quote you "if it really exists, nobody ever discusses whether they believe in it". I'm saying that's not true. People discuss whether they believe things exist all the time. I'm saying that just cuz someone disagrees something exists doesn't mean it doesn't exist, hence the stamp. You're not omniscient. You can't say that there never were unicorns or extraterrestrials or a God just cuz people debate their existence
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My post was _agreeing with the stamp_ and pointing out a simple logical corollary. I'm sorry if you don't understand.
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*sigh* there you go again with insulting others intelligence. We get you agree with it. I made my point and you have not responded to my comment. I'm saying something can exist whether or not people discuss if they believe in it. By all means change your statement, but what you said was that people don't discuss whether they believe something exists if it actually exists, which can't be proven.
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Again, you don't understand. I'm sorry, but it was very simple.
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Why don't you enlighten me, person-who-is-obviously-smarter-than-everyone-else, instead of avoiding answering my comment
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I've already offered my support for the stamp and it's self-contained. Your trolling does nothing to diminish that.
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You call it trolling and yet I have said nothing out of context or said anything to "troll" you. I am merely trying to give my viewpoint and let others express their views without getting shot down by insults. Yet again, you insult me to prove a point. Still it doesn't work. Let people state their views without insulting their intelligence. You have not stated any reason yet why any of us is less intelligent than you, you just use it when you don't have a reply to a comment that conflicts with your worldview. Just show a little respect for others
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I've shown you nothing but respect and you continue to troll.
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Haha really? I'm sure saying things are "obviously too complicated " for me shows respect
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And seriously, insulting someone doesn't make you're argument stronger, it makes other people loose respect cuz you have to resort to that in an argument. Marlowespiral just answered you're "simple" observation with a more complicated one. Not the best way to debate but also doesn't mean he's not smart enough to understand you.
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Unfortunately, the stamp brings up something pretty complex. You gotta be prepared for string theory if you're going to say "Everyone knows toothpaste exists, so it exists. Not everyone agrees that God exists so (s)he must not exists." To state "If everyone agrees on it, it is real, if people disagree on it, it must not exist" is on the same level as when we said "The world is flat! Galileo must be wrong!"
To bring things into the terms of "believe," people argue about whether or not they believe John Cage's 4:33 is music, and they argue about whether or not Jackson Pollock is art. Even the things we know as "facts" in terms of math and science are merely theorems.
Satisfied?
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Partially. now the only thing I have issue with is that you say:
" To state "If everyone agrees on it, it is real, if people disagree on it, it must not exist" is on the same level as when we said "The world is flat! Galileo must be wrong!" "
My problem here is that I don't think anyone stated that "if people disagree on it, it must not exist". The statement was "if it really exists, nobody ever discusses whether they believe in it", and I suppose if you believe there is only an exact equal and opposite inversion left on the other end of a statement, then it would lead you to say that this is what we are talking about. But it's not what I'm talking about. Saying that 'fish are animals' does not mean that 'if something is not a fish, it is not an animal'.
My astronomy professor once told us this story:
"When I met my wife when she was a student. We got married after she graduated."
this leads you to infer certain things. but he then told us:
"I was also a student at the time. We waited for her to graduate because we were waiting for both of us to graduate."
my point is that it may not always be in your best intrest to draw conclusions on the intent of statements or to assume that they imply lofty ideas without first seeking an explanation from the writer/speaker. saying that blue is a good color should not be taken to mean that any other color other than blue is bad.
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The statement was something along the lines of "People don't disagree about things that are real." My statement was that the speaker oversimplified things.
My new statement is "TOO MUCH TEXT, I'M NOT READING THIS." I amend it to "Boy, you sure do like to argue, don't you, sweetheart?" I continue with this cute anecdote: my violin professor tells us, "those people, they don't know anything. Ignore them." (Of course, she says it in a cute Polish accent." My viola professor, on the other hand, says something along the lines of "You must consider all options." (Russian accent here.) My conclusion is, "And now I know why I think people who think rhetoric is neat are douchebags."
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haha sorry for the length. i enjoy a good discussion on the abstract from time to time. have a good one.
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wow. typo. *say (in the fist line)
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I don't see this as any kind of attack. I enjoy its positive message. Win.
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great, more attacks against believes.
let people believe in whatever they want quietly, thank you.
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I think this is more about people who choose to disbelieve proven scientific concepts (I.E., saying "I don't believe in gravity" sure won't make you able to fly) than about religion...
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i would think so too, but then i saw the stamp on her description and got pissed off.
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Okay, so many athiests have been attacked by your so called "believers". One day I was simply discussing my beliefs and possibilities with a friend on a forum, and someone randomly attacked me telling me I'm going to hell if I don't believe.
Plus, the only reason your taking it as an insult is because you want to. There was no putting down, it was simply a statement. A statement doesn't mean it implies towards you.
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i never attacked atheists or will unless they insult me first.
anyone can choose what to believe at and i will respect it.
i got insulted cause she is doing a series of faith-related stamps like her previous one.
if this was her first one related to the subjet i would've tolerated it.
but seriously, you got enough attention with the stupid unicorns one, why continue it?
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But she did not insult you.
Her previous one only represented, "I believe in a separate thing, let me do that.".
This one means, "If there is such a thing, then the belief towards it will make no difference if it is or is not."
Basically meaning, if there is a god then may it be. Perhaps this is towards my own belief or not, but it will not effect weather it is or is not.
And this is free to interpretation, and you, took it towards the worst form. That is the thing with all humans, everyone is trying to pick a bone with everyone.
And also, she does have the right to express how she feels on the subject.
As you have the right to express your freedom of religion, your own religion, and ect.
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Im sorry. Those people obviously have no concept of Christianity if they did that to you.
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There is no need to apologize, knowing that people can accept others is perfect by me. Thank you, though.
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No problem. I just want people to know what real Christians are. I don't want to be blamed for fakes hurting others
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I can get that. I don't want everyone look at atheists and agnostics as an arrogant people.
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I'm not sure it was meant as an insult, really.
Temphis has a point. I think, at least, the artist meant it more as, if something is really there, physically existing, then it doesn't matter if you believe in it, because it's there.
I, personally, am not offended by it, but that's just me. You could be different. Which, it seems, you are.
I'm rambling, sorry. Um. Either way, I don't really see it as an attack. And even if it is, well, I guess that's their opinion. Isn't that what DA is for? Expressing yourself?
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in art, not written boring statements that are much more fitting in a forum.
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Y'know, I like that. I was trying to be unbiased, but I pretty much have to agree with you.
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i believe killing is wrong, so i kill abortionists.
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random statments to try and ridicule my point... it just doesn't work dude.
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its not random, its what the stamp is about
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I don't really see how this is an attack.
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seeing her previous stamp, it is.
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have you thought maybe she's just a silly girl who wants to believe in unicorns? i'm not taking sides here, that's not my bag, but you seems upset, and i'm proposing that perhaps you need not be.
also how do you feel about this? [link]
just looking for opinions on different perspectives. i'd like to hear yours mate.
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i'm not christian, thank you.
maybe she is, but the context felt too much like the whole "you have an imaginary friend" thing like some people like to make stamps in here.
stop insulting people's intelligence please, leave them be...
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didn't mean to imply that I assumed you were christian. i'm not either, but I'm still allowed to have an opinion on christianity and the church as separate bodies. i was just curious how you feel about that since we are loosely discussing religion. i just recently stumbled upon that recitation and took a liking to it. just looking for opinions. maybe this isn't where to look for them.
as for your final line there, is that directed at me or at the artist/stamp maker? i'd hate to think I've insulted anyone I didn't intend to. intentional insults tend to allow for much more creativity. but again that was not my intention here.
best,
--JTP
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You're allowed to believe in anything you want, you just can't tell people your item of belief is real and true and all other beliefs are not.
It's called 'deal with reality'.
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well actually, it is usually believers that are made fun of and are accusted of being dumb and educated or believing in a "imaginery friend" and i'm very sick of seeing those stamps on front page.
i don't shove my beliefs in your throat, why should people try and make fun of people having faith?
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I think it's worth looking at this issue from both sides. On the internet, which on many sites tends towards liberalism and has many young, non-religious users, YES, absolutely, lots of religious persons are attacked for their beliefs. HOWEVER, in real life, people of the Christian, God-fearing persuasion are still a huge majority, and generally speaking they are not the ones being persecuted-- if anything, there are many, many (admittedly fringe, usually radical) Christian groups who actively persecute people who have differing beliefs. Particularly in America-- you must remember that there has never been a US president who was a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Hindu or an Atheist. They've ALL had some kind of Christian affiliation. There is literally no way you could get elected, in the current political climate, running for president as an atheist. Furthermore, many studies have shown that atheists are considered "the least trustworthy people" by many--
[link]
[link]
[link]
[link]
--even less trustworthy than gays and Muslims, two traditionalyl revilved groups.
Because of this, I think many atheists feel the need to defend themselves and their beliefs *even when they are not actively being attacked.* Even if you, zoareena, are not "shoving your beliefs in their throats," there is an overwhelming culture of Christian superiority in the Western world, and so to a certain extent, your beliefs are ALWAYS being shoved down atheists' throats, be it by the government, the media or any number of other means. : / This stamp is not particularly abrasive-- if anything, it has a "live and let live" (you believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe because in the end what turns out to be real is real and our differing beliefs will not change that)sort of message.
Perhaps we should ALL take that to heart, regardless of our beliefs, and regardless of whether others appreciate those beliefs or not?
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i'm not christian i'm speaking as someone who has faith that god exists.
being insulted all the time here on DA and seeing anti-faith stamps is very annoying.
i don't make stamps like "you'll all go to hell, sinners" so please stop the whole god exists or not arguemnt.
it's an art site, not theology one.
and i do get art might have something to do with philosophy, but i'd rather doubt if a stamp is the best way to discuss that in a site that is geared towards art.
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Well those Christian groups who persecute other's beliefs would not technically be Christian but some twisted version. Christians love others despite what they say or do. That's why I get angry at "Christians" who hate gays or Muslims or Atheists because they're supposed to hate the idea and not the person. We are given free will and you can't change that, you can just try your best to share what you believe and leave it. It's up to the other person to decide what to believe not you.
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I agree with you, and personally I've only ever been in close contact with Christians who are just normal people who have religious faith. HOWEVER, there are a lot of crazies out there who, regardless of what they really are, CALL themselves Christian, and unfortunately they tend to be a lot more vocal than sane, normal religious persons. In turn, when a lot of atheists/Muslims/Jews/whatever *hear* "Christian," even if they are otherwise stable people themselves, their automatic knee-jerk reaction is "oh god they're going to berate me for my beliefs," and therefore they tend to become defensive. It's sad that, basically for all groups of people, the loudest and most radical are frequently the ones who end up the "face" of the group even when MOST of the people in that group are totally normal.
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Exactly. Although I don't see true Christianity as a religion, but as a relationship with God
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You don't shove them down our throat, but that doesn't mean others don't.
The person didn't make this stamp to attack you, just as he didn't make it to attack those of us who don't believe but still don't force others to not believe. People out there who believe will attack those who don't, and those who don't will attack those who believe. Not all of them will on either side. If you're one who doesn't, this stamp isn't directed at you; therefore there's no reason to take offense.
On the other hand, you could bring this stamp to be in favor of the believers. "If it really exists, it doesn't matter if people believe in it or not." People who believe God exist believe he/she really exists. If he/she really exists, it doesn't matter if people don't believe in him/her, because God exists. See how that works?
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i would view it like you, but then i saw the related pictures in the description that hinted her real intentions of this stamp.
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That the stamp's creator, like you, would like to be left alone about his/her beliefs? That's what I understood from what I saw in the artist comments. The creator believes in unicorns. That's all well and good. She doesn't believe in God. Fine and dandy. The worst the creator did was say "Let me believe." I can't really say that's a bad intention, seeing as how that's what you were saying in the first place, right?
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