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BrotherCoa — Rider's logic busted
Published: 2013-11-13 17:39:26 +0000 UTC; Views: 2981; Favourites: 27; Downloads: 4
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Whenever I remember this scene from 'Fate/Zero' I get mad for Rider telling all those things to Saber.Primary because he is not right, there is a second side to that ideals and the men below is the perfect example for that.
Just because you sacrifice for your people does not mean that you are not suitable to be king - it's exact the opposite.
But what can a selfish men understand?
Fate and it's characters belongs to Type-Moon.
Warhammer 40.000 and it's characters belong to Games Workshop.
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Comments: 19
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I'm gonna have to side with Rider. Though Rider's Empire fell he feels they truly lived when they made their way across the land. Though his Empire fell to infighting they helped reshape the world with their actions and none can ever question that. Arturia alienated most of her court with her actions and it is true what Rider said, she didn't truly inspire them to step forward. She always kept herself apart and that is why Britain fell (I am British and it's really a bit sad that I'm talking down a national legend.
The God Emperor was awesome but he also failed monumentally. A super powered genius, an awe inspiring warrior and a poor father. He wanted to remove religion so as to make man truly independant and probably also to shield them from the temptations of Chaos but what he did to Lorgar... I mean the Emperoro may not have been necessarily divine but he is a tremendous psyker and well over 40,000 years old. The Emperor of Mankind used his sons as his elite warriors but he never tried to be a father and that is what caused the Horus Heresy. Which is actually the same mistake Arturia made by refusing to acknowledge her son/daughter Mordred. The expanded universe suggests that Mordred didn't want to go along with her mother's plans but Arturia repeatedly shunning Mordred forced the situation.
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Hardly. Besides, isn't it wrong to shout heresy when the man himself wanted to get rid of all that religion?
The Emperor is a husk on a golden life support machine because he never reached out to his sons. He never sat them down and laid it all out to them because he was so sure he knew best and that he was going to live forever.
He told nobody about his attempts to build a webway for safe interstellar travel, he told nobody about what he knew was in the Warp. Magnus the Red of the Thousand Sons had a vision of Horus injured and being seduced by Chaos and in his desperation to pass on this knowledge he accidentally broke the Emperor's webway project with his psychic powers and the sorcery he had learned. And for that the "Loyalist" Legions turned on him.
Rider has a Reality Marble that allows him to summon every man he has fought beside and he calls them all his friend and brother. At no point in any of the 40K canon and expanded materials have I ever come across mention of the Emperor of Mankind having a friend. He always remained a distant figure of great power, like the gods he sought to remove from mankind's cultural identity. What does that say about the Emperor?
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Yes, because guys like Angron and Konrad Curze are reasonable. And if you tell people about the Warp, it will gain strength. And what would your reaction be if you found out that your leader that taught you to hate the aliens because they fucked up was developing his own version of alien technology.
Besides, we don't really have to explain the ways of Warhammer 40k to fucking weeaboos like you. So, again... HERESY! *blamblamblam*
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Sorry for the delay in replying, my laptop died and it had all my passwords and the like. Konrad Curze and Angron were victims of their worlds. Angron grew up hooked on stuff that made him a berserker. And rather than work to fix that, they just took him away and sent him to fight more. He's got the weakest defence I'll admit but I think if the Emperor had stopped to think then he might have realised that Angron needed the chance to calm down before going on a campaign.
Konrad is basically Batman with superpowers. He used fear to force law onto the people. And it worked so long as it was just him and he was the one doing bad things. But then it became the modus operandi of an army, a legion. And the problem with those methods is that doing it again and again will force the person to rationalise and rationalise until it won't bother them. Which is what happened. And the Legion enjoyed doing these things. Something that went against what Konrad believed in; using fear to enforce order. Now he had an army of sadists, the kind he had hunted in his formative years. Check the Heresy, he tried to find ways to justify the Night Lords, but eventually he went to Sanguinius to practically beg the ANGEL to kill him for his sins. Only for Sanguinius to be the loving brother that wanted him to just come home. But Konrad just could not do that because doing so would mean admitting that he had been wrong his entire life. His. Entire. Life. Sanguinius tried to be a brother. When the Emperor met Konrad he didn't try to bond with Konrad, didn't even try to look into why Konrad identified himself as the Night Haunter more than as Konrad Kurze, he just put Konrad on a ship and sent him off to conquer the rest of the planets needed to make up the Imperium.
The Emperor is a powerful man and he had a great vision that I do find myself agreeing with in parts but he was too distant from those who he should have been a father to.
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Oh, definetly. Emps was a great strategist, philosopher, scientist and warrior... but he failed as a father on so many ways.
"Konrad is basically Batman with superpowers" If you mix Punisher, Rorschach and The Crow too.
"He tried to find ways to justify the Night Lords, but eventually he went to Sanguinius to practically beg the ANGEL to kill him for his sins. Only for Sanguinius to be the loving brother that wanted him to just come home. But Konrad just could not do that because doing so would mean admitting that he had been wrong his entire life. His. Entire. Life."
........................................... Geez, that screwed me up. *sniff* Poor Konrad... Poor Sanguinius...
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Interesting comparison. I will keep it in mind 
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Actually, Ultima-Matrixed has a point. But what you are all forgetting is that the three of them, Arturia, Alexander, and Gilgamesh, were all Kings in completely different eras. Of course they would have different ideals of how a True King should act or behave. That being said, I disagree with Alexander when he says that Arturia never led her subjects. Lancelot, as he is dying with his Mad Enhancement gone, says that he and all of the Knights that followed her believed her to be the greatest of Kings.
They all believed in her dream called Avalon and for that dream they were willing to lay down their lives for their King. There is a reason Excalibur is powered by the dreams that all soldiers on the battlefield share as they are about to die. Every soldier wishes "To be exalted" for their courage and Excalibur is the personification of the glory that they sought.
She lead Camelot amazingly well and she saved the country from the Saxons that were invading Britain, but it was her subjects desire for a Perfect King that was their undoing. When Arturia gave them a Perfect King, they feared her because she was so "Perfect" that it seemed she was incapable of feeling human emotions, when in reality she just suppressed and/or hid them from her subjects so they could keep their "Perfect King" image of her.
She gave them exactly what they wanted no matter what they asked her to sacrifice knowingly or unknowingly, but they refused to accept that and instead blamed how she acted on herself instead of their ideals of a "Perfect King" that they forced on her. All of the sacrifices that Arturia made so that King Arthur would still be considered "Perfect" were unknowingly spit on by Alexander when he made his comments. Don't get me wrong, I think that Alexander is an awesome character in this show and I have always enjoyed learning about Alexander the Great's history, but I simply believe he didn't understand what exactly Arturia sacrificed for her home. She sacrificed damn near everything that could be sacrificed for her people and her subjects could never see it as enough. So much so that she wanted to wish for a different King to take the throne of Camelot to replace her so that Britain could have a King that she feels would be better than her.
Also, the story behind the affair between Lancelot and Guinevere is much more complicated than it seems, but that is a whole other issue that I won't comment on for the moment.
My point is, while Alexander may have had a point, he still didn't fully understand just how much Arturia sacrificed for her people.
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Yeah, just like the Emps, she sacrificed everything for the sake of others.
And just like the Emps, she was not understood until it was too late.
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Except now you are forever dying corpse sustained by countless sacrifices of unwilling people, your state transformed into bloody mindless dystopia worse than anything known in history and your race is locked in war with countless alien species, spawns of realm beyound understanding and it's own kin. Oh, by the way, your actions only made Chaos Gods stronger, machinery of your throne are failing and eventually every single member of your race would become living Warp Gate.
...I am sorry, but couldn't resist joking about it.
Also, Emperor's goals might have been purely egoistic to begin with.
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But what do selfish men understand ? Why , they understand that sacrifice is folly .
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the difference between Saber and Empy is, Empy has thought thing through (for the most part) and he explained/shared his Ideals with others and enough took to those ideals to keep the Empire of Man running
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Finish the series. Fast forward to the fight with Berserker. And then it becomes apparent why Rider said what he said. This is a work by Gen Urobuchi after all. It's supposed to be a deconstruction.
Arthur refused to be a human being as he believed that to become king meant to be perfect. And because he was 'perfect' he could not see or prevent what was going on around him. It was flawed human perception that led to his end. And that's why Camelot fell. Arthur did not treat Guinevere with affection because he didn't see it as fair to everyone else. And because of this her eyes wandered to Lancelot. Lancelot was torn between his duty to his king and his love for Guinevere. He couldn't stay, but he couldn't leave. Which is what ultimately leads to his fate.
During all of this Morgana was after Arthur because of Uther raping her mother Ingrane (resulting in Arthur's birth) and being responsible for her father's death. And then Mordred came into play as a means to tear apart Britannia.
The point is in this series is a drama. No one is supposed to look good. Everybody is supposed to look like the flawed human beings that they are/were.
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Lancelot is an idiot... he fell because he wanted to be punished by his king? LAME..... ( at least Saber sent his spirit at ease since his only wish was for her te defeat him in battle )
Beside this is a drama, Saber only fail because her own people failed to understand her sacrifice and on a top of that her own son tried to claim the throe for himself. But as a result her legend is the strongest adn she stand out as the greatest king.
Same goes for the guy bellow... He sacrificed everything to help Humanity rebuilt and survive, but his own sons failed to understand him and as a result fell to corruption. Now the poor guy can only sit on his throne and rot while Mankind is trying to survive day after day. Nevertheless the guy was declared living God of Mankind and as such he gained more power than ever before.
What Rider said is that men who sacrifice himself for others can never became a king or rule because it should be the other way around ( taking himself as obvious example ). Saber won the bet because her people after her death survived the centuries of war and invasions build the largest empire that ever spanned the Earth, while the guy bellow won the bet by not becoming a king but God Emperor of Mankind.
Actually, Saber and Emperor shame almost the same story and fate. The only difference being that the Emperor is on entirely different level.
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If you see Lancelot as an idiot then you've missed a big part of the intention behind the remark and the story. And the rest of your response shows me that you are unable to see the intended picture. You are only seeing these people as their legends intended them to be seen. Not as human beings, which was the intention of the story as it was written.
So anything I put at you, you will just slap away with blind hero worship. So that is all this is. An attempt to devalue a character because he said something you didn't like personally. This has no theological standing, it's just hero worshiping. I should have known by my first look. Oh well, live and learn.
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You would be right if they were human indeed. But they are not human at all and that is why you are wrong.
Saber abandoned her Humanity in order to save her people from foreign invasions and try to lead them int o the bright future. She made mistakes because she didn't understand human felling and in return her people didn't understand her and brought her downfall - this is not legend, in Fate this actually happened. We know that because of Shirou's dream.
You are very wrong about the Emperor.
He was born in 8000 BC, he is immortal ( and a perpetual to that, meaning that he will resurrect even when his body dies ), he acted trough human history as Jesus Christ, Buddha and many other notable personalities whenever it was necessary, he took his position as Emperor of Mankind in the year 31.000 and on top of all of that his mental power were so powerful that he literally could crush an entire world with his thought - this guy don't qualify as human being at all.
He has fallen because he tried to abolish religion and because he acted coldly toward his sons. In the end his ultimate fall was because his Humanity got better of him as he didn't want to kill his fallen son and in return suffered mortal wound. After that his son who stayed loyal to him connected him to the life supporting machine and he is stuck there for the last 10.000 years, slowly rotting away and trying to protect his race by using his mental powers.
This is also not legend, all of this actually happened in Warhammer 40.000 lore.
And I don't blind worshiping them ( at least not Saber ), both of them have their mistakes and both of those mistakes lead to their downfall. That does not mean that they were failures as leaders of a nations like Rider said. In fact I may say that he is the biggest failure as his empire came crushing down literally few years after his death, and his people today are only a shadow of his former empire.
And Lancelot was indeed an idiot. He hit Saber's wife and instead of killing him Saber forgave him. Instead of being happy and get to live happily with Guinevere ( he already slept with his queen, so at that point he should just throw away his honor overall ) he started crying and becoming depressed because his king didn't want to punish him? If this is not fail I don't know what is.
One last thing - jsut because I have a different view of things does not mean you can insult me like that.
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Rider was an egocentric arsehole, so he tried to justify himself by making normal kings look stupid. (my theory)
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