HOME | DD

Published: 2012-09-19 19:10:50 +0000 UTC; Views: 10157; Favourites: 210; Downloads: 1011
Redirect to original
Description
The rules in full color for Sun and Moon—The Astral Game. The PDF file is set up for US letter size (8.5 inches by 11 inches), and is four pages long. It also can be printed from Adobe Acrobat or Reader as a “booklet” on a single sheet of tabloid paper (11 inches by 17 inches), then folded in half.(I apologize for the bizarre category, but Deviantart steadfastly ignores the existence of any game other than digital games.)
Related content
Comments: 367
CatspawDTP In reply to ??? [2012-10-12 04:13:31 +0000 UTC]
So noted! As I mentioned elsewhere, I’m copying suggestions like this into a catch-all text file.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Adran06 In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-12 05:49:01 +0000 UTC]
Actually, now that I've really thought about it, my Zebra concept needs more work, since its just a better version of the Unicorn. Need to consider other ideas, as the only thing I knew for sure when I made it was that I wanted it to be a medic-type, based on what I read about Zecora. I'll see if I can't come up with a better idea for movement/capture for it.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
CatspawDTP In reply to Adran06 [2012-10-12 15:47:21 +0000 UTC]
There’s also the optional “drop” rule allowing a player to drop a previously captured piece back on the board instead of making a move. Anything that returns a piece to the board would be a weaker version of that, aside from your unique idea about stacking.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Adran06 In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-12 15:50:16 +0000 UTC]
Yes, but the main advantage of this way is it also steals an opponent's captured piece, so if the "drop" rule is being used, that's one less piece they have to drop back in.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Adran06 In reply to ??? [2012-10-11 22:44:50 +0000 UTC]
I just noticed a variant suggestion made by Blaze-Drag that I feel fits perfectly as a rule for variant pieces, where you can have any pieces you want, but must have 12 soldiers and 1 princess in total. I would suggest also making some variants have limits on how many copies they can have.
Additional Pieces
Dragons (recommend limit to only 1 dragon)
Dragons can only move 1 space at a time, and capture like Earth Ponies. When they capture, rather than storing it, the captured piece is stacked on top of the Dragon. Dragons gain the following traits, based on the number of stacks they have. A dragon cannot have more than 5 pieces in a stack.
1) Dragons can move in an arc a number of stars equal to their total stack. They can “fly over” piece when they do, but cannot capture while flying.
2) Dragons can turn a corner a number of times equal to half their total stack. They can capture while turning corners, but cannot fly in the same turn.
3) Sacrifice a stack in order to defend against a capture. The sacrificed piece is returned to the opponent (so they could play it again if using the variant rules). If the attacking piece would be sharing a space with the dragon, the piece is instead placed 1 star away as if they stopped before attacking. Dragons cannot capture or sacrifice in the turns (yours and your opponent's) after sacrificing.
If a dragon with stacks is captured, the entire stack is captured as well.
Changelings (recommend 1-4 Changelings)
Changelings can move up to 2 spaces, but cannot turn a corner. Changelings capture like Earth Ponies, but can only move 1 space when capturing unless transformed.
Transforming: Instead of moving, you may place a captured piece on a Changeling. For as long as that piece is on the Changeling, it acts as that piece. You can spend a turn to reverse a transformation, returning the captured piece to your collection of captured pieces.
If I come up with more, I'll post them here.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
timgil In reply to Adran06 [2012-10-13 19:42:46 +0000 UTC]
Would a dragon sacrifice its entire stack, or just the last added piece? How would one capture a dragon with a stack, if sacrifice of stack saves it from capture?
Assuming capture with stack is possible, would a dragon capturing another dragon with a stack add the enemy dragon's stack to his own?
Can any captured piece be used for changelings, or only one the changeling captured? I could imagine it working that a changeling capturing a soldier would turn the changeling into that piece.
If both dragons and changelings are used, can a changeling transform into a dragon, or only a pony soldier?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Adran06 In reply to timgil [2012-10-13 20:22:58 +0000 UTC]
I honestly see no reason a Changeling couldn't turn into a dragon in this, even if it doesn't entirely make sense canonically (though, if there is a limit to what Changelings can turn into in canon, I'm not aware of it either). As for a limit on what they can change into, its just anything you have captured at all, not just what a Changeling has captured.
Dragons sacrifice the last added piece. You would capture a Dragon by capturing it twice in a row, or keeping it from capturing long enough to drop it below 3 stacks, at which point you can capture it without its defense activating. And I have no idea if that would add the whole stack, I'm not sure if that would be utterly broken or not XD
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
CatspawDTP In reply to Adran06 [2012-10-12 00:01:50 +0000 UTC]
The concept of stacking is an intriging one. I especially like the changeling. The “drop” rule, nifty as it is, has scotched several interesting suggestions, but this works around it nicely.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Adran06 In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-12 01:56:06 +0000 UTC]
Actually, now that I think of it, the Dragon should probably stack UNDER the dragon piece, rather than on top, since the Changeling also stacks on top (but it takes on that form, so it makes more sense to be on top). That way, you always know a Dragon stack from a Changeling one.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
CatspawDTP In reply to Adran06 [2012-10-12 04:11:36 +0000 UTC]
Copypasta into the slowly growing text file of suggestions!
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
timgil In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-13 20:10:22 +0000 UTC]
My biggest problem with pets is it allows a maximum of 42 pieces on the board at once, not even considering added dragons zebras or changelings.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
CatspawDTP In reply to timgil [2012-10-13 21:17:27 +0000 UTC]
Yeah, that could get pretty crowded. I may not use every suggestion I get, but I copy them down for later evaluation so I don’t lose track of them in the undergrowth.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Adran06 In reply to timgil [2012-10-13 20:19:21 +0000 UTC]
My piece suggestions are based on being limited to ONLY 12 soldiers (you'd pick which ones to take into play), and only 4 pets at once, so you'd have a max of 34, not 42. And getting that many out means both players spent 4 turns doing nothing but playing pets.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Adran06 In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-12 04:57:45 +0000 UTC]
I'm probably gonna be spewing out ideas for quite a while now thanks to this game XD
Zebra (Recommend 1-4 Zebras)
Zebras may move 1 or 2 stars in an arc, and capture like a Unicorn. When a Zebra would capture, if your opponent has captured any of your pieces, you may instead take a piece back and place it on a star adjacent to the Zebra.
New Ideas below
In addition to Soldiers and Princesses, there can be a third type of piece: Pets (or they could be called Beasts or something, haven’t settled on a name yet). I haven’t seen much of the show, but Pets/animals are fairly common based on what I’ve heard and seen, so since a lot of the other ideas I have don’t really fit as full and proper pieces IMO, I’ve decided to go out and be as creative as I can. This, I warn you now, is probably a bad thing as I can be dangerously creative, but I’ve already set my course, so here goes.
Rules for Pets
Pet pieces do not start in play. Instead, you start with your Pets (of which you can bring 8 to a game) to the side. During your turn, rather than move a piece, you can play a Pet on your side of the board. You can only control 4 pets at a time, and only 1 of any specific pet (unless it’s ability says otherwise). Pets can only be on your side, and cannot cross the Twilight Line. Instead of Capturing, Pets Attack, which prevents the attacked piece from capturing for the next turn.
Manticore
The Manticore may move exactly 2 stars, either along an arc or turning a corner, flying over pieces, and “attacks” like a Pegasus captures. Instead of moving, it can also “knock back” a piece adjacent to itself, sending it 1 star along the arc in the opposite direction. A piece that is “knocked back” cannot move or capture during the next turn.
Hydra
The Hydra may move 1 or 2 stars on an arc, or can “attack” up to 4 adjacent pieces at once. It cannot attack in the same turn it moves. A Hydra has to be captured 4 times before it is actually captured, with each capture removing 1 of its adjacent attacks instead.
Parasprite
The Parasprite may move 1 star, and cannot attack. Instead of moving, you may play another Parasprite on an adjacent star, as long as you have fewer Parasprites than you have captured pieces. Parasprites can share a star with other pieces, stacking on top of each other. Parasprites stacked together may move 1 star more for every 2 Parasprites stacked. When on a star with a non-parasprite, the number of stars that piece can move is reduced by 1 for each Parasprite in the stack.
Cockatrice
The Cockatrice may move 1 or 2 stars on an arc, may fly over pieces, and “attacks” like a Unicorn captures. A piece attacked by a Cockatrice cannot move or capture for two of your opponent’s turns.
More to come if I come up with more ideas.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
CatspawDTP In reply to Adran06 [2012-10-14 18:24:51 +0000 UTC]
I’ve copied these into the text file for later evaluation. If and when I can get the core game nailed down—the princess seems to be the hold-out on that—I’ll see about turning my attention to the companion booklet.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
timgil In reply to ??? [2012-10-11 03:59:20 +0000 UTC]
Another totally crazy idea, what if the Sun and Moon weren't fixed? What if the princess could move her Celestial Body around her side of the firmament? Of course in the show, it is the Alicorn's duty to control the Sun and Moon, so it would definitely work canon-wise. Potentially if the princess was adjacent to her Body she could move while pushing and/or pulling it with her. She would not be able to bring it past the twilight line, or control her sister's Body. Maneuvering such an obstacle could be very useful strategically. The Earth of course would remain immobile.
I would certainly understand if you rejected this idea immediately, if only because you do not want to remake the board at this late stage of development. If you were to implement this, you'd have to remove the Sun and Moon from the board, and make them movable pieces.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
CatspawDTP In reply to timgil [2012-10-11 17:42:44 +0000 UTC]
Yikes! Yes, it would entail a fundamental change in the artwork, and while I’m all for new designs and art, I don’t think I want to change the physical elements of the game at this point. It certainly is an interesting idea, though, and as I mentioned before, I encourage ideas even if I don’t end up using them.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
timgil In reply to ??? [2012-10-11 03:25:10 +0000 UTC]
Another unlikely off the cuff unicorn solution, unlimit the unicorn's range(not past the twilight line or obstacle) but make it directional. on a turn, the unicorn could either A. move 1 star in the direction it is pointed, B. fire at and capture a pony in its line of fire, or C. turn to face a new direction. Alternatively, for A. it could move in any direction, but remain facing the same direction, i.e. if facing left, moves down while still facing left. It'd be difficult to give the princess a power pertaining to it though. You might instead want to opt with, for her, the teleport capture or something else similar. Such a piece would be useful for defense
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
CatspawDTP In reply to timgil [2012-10-11 17:43:55 +0000 UTC]
At the moment I’ve gone with Blaze-Drag’s concept for the unicorn and for shifting TopGull’s unicorn idea to the princess. I’m hoping those will work adequately well to nail down the game.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
timgil In reply to ??? [2012-10-10 22:31:50 +0000 UTC]
I don't find this solution particularly likely, but I had a thought that rather than capturing an enemy piece, what if a unicorn could sway its allegiances flipping it from Sun to Moon, as one might an Othello piece. My thought was that in The Return of Harmony, Twilight used a spell to snap her friends out of Discord's trance, which could be construed as changing allegiances. Just an idea I thought might fit with the cannon, though it might be difficult to implement and balance. Obviously a princess would have to be immune to such a spell (then again, perhaps not so obvious). Perhaps it could be a move only for the princess though, making the opponent's soldiers loyal to herself. It could also perhaps be made so that it would require two unicorns attacking one piece to flip it, otherwise it'd capture, as per the normal rules.
Probably the most feasible would be to make it a princess only attack.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
CatspawDTP In reply to timgil [2012-10-10 23:06:57 +0000 UTC]
It’s an interesting idea—but there already is the optional “drop” rule (based on a similar rule in shogi) allowing a player to put a captured piece back on the board instead of taking a normal turn.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
timgil In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-11 03:07:09 +0000 UTC]
I did think it might interfere with the drop rule, but I like the idea of the princess swaying soldiers to her side. I figured it wouldn't be ultimately implemented, just like my limiting the princess to the twilight line rule. With that, I was trying to come up with a possible solution that no one else had, though it might not be the best put forth.
Perhaps a rule such as this changing sides one, might be able to be implemented only into games with the drop rule applied. I'd suggest (if that were the case) to have the attack limited to adjacent pieces, whether in place of a move, or after one. Likely limited only to the princess.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
CatspawDTP In reply to timgil [2012-10-11 17:45:46 +0000 UTC]
There may be possibilities in it for “fairy” pieces or game problems, if nothing else. I’ll need such variants and problems to flesh out the game’s “legend”, giving it more verisimilitude as a world-building element.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
TopGull [2012-10-06 12:55:39 +0000 UTC]
I had another thought about the unicorn: instead of the "shooting" capture, what about a "teleporting" capture move? The threat area would be the same, but it would no longer be able to passively picket an area. To me, this seems to be a better complement to the other soldier types. A few days ago some people seemed to still have a problem with the unicorn not having to move to capture; not sure if that's still an issue, but this might solve that.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
CatspawDTP In reply to TopGull [2012-10-06 17:05:40 +0000 UTC]
I thought about a teleport-capture, but it would bear some similarity to a pegasus “flying over”, which would dilute the unique qualities of each.
The commentary on unicorn capture seems to have died down, although it isn’t clear whether people simply have stopped commenting on it or are reasonably satisfied with the current state of the rules. Speaking personally, it works for me, and barring clear proof that it’s broken I think it probably will stand.
I’d like your thoughts on the hybrid idea for the princess, by the way!
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
timgil In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-07 07:31:20 +0000 UTC]
I disagree about the similarity. The pegasus, with the jump capture lands on the space behind the enemy, or one further along. the teleport capture would end the unicorn on that space, but it could not be blocked from getting there. If there were for instance two pieces in a row next to a unicorn, it could capture the second piece, ignoring the first and end where that piece had been. A pegasus could not move in that situation (at least not in that direction). Besides, the unicorn would still presumably be able to attack around corners, which the flyover of course disallows. I do think this teleport capture might go a long way toward balancing the game. As Blaze-Drag is saying, the unicorn as it currently captures cannot be guarded against. This might also alleviate some problems with the princess' unicorn capture. If you were to go the "hybrid" route as Blaze-Drag suggested, I think this teleport capture would work much better than the sniper capture.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
CatspawDTP In reply to timgil [2012-10-07 19:17:31 +0000 UTC]
In that case I would be tempted to require that as the move and capture for the unicorn.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
timgil In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-08 08:10:59 +0000 UTC]
That could certainly work. Would you require that a Unicorn could only move with a capture? Or would they just teleport with each move, so they could not be blocked?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
CatspawDTP In reply to timgil [2012-10-08 15:20:28 +0000 UTC]
I’m thinking of making it the latter. It would put them in line with the other pieces in the sense of “move, and if you can, capture”. The only thing that bothers me is that this would give the unicorn and pegasus both the ability to get past other pieces, even if only to a limited degree, while the poor earth pony is stuck.
👍: 0 ⏩: 3
timgil In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-09 03:19:12 +0000 UTC]
You say that the Earth pony is stuck, but he is able to take multiple routes to the same star, unlike any other piece. This often allows him to maneuver around obstacles, while currently the Unicorn is the only piece that can't move as such.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
CatspawDTP In reply to timgil [2012-10-09 05:38:42 +0000 UTC]
That’s a good point, and I even noticed it was true when creating the movement diagram. It simply slipped my mind, doh.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Blaze-Drag In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-09 18:28:50 +0000 UTC]
Although at the same time, you can think of it as 3 different tiers of maneuverability. Pegasi can fly, so they get around obstacles the easiest, not to mention they destroy the obstacle along the way if its an enemy. Earth Ponies are still physically strong and agile, but can be blocked due to still being limited to the ground with only 2 pieces. And considering that the beginning game board is pretty crowded, not exactly hard. Meanwhile the unicorn, being the physically weakest, should be the easiest to block in.
Also, if you think about it, even the Pegasus can still be blocked from moving a direction with only 2 pieces, and an earth pony is restricted to only 1 space assuming it decides to capture one of the 2 blocking pieces, meanwhile a unicorn that can teleport to move and attack can never be blocked from moving its full movement by enemy pieces, even if its completely surrounded. (Assuming you make its movement the same as its attack as I think you or someone else alluded to earlier.) Yeah, sure it would probably get taken still after its move, but what if you're sacrificing the piece anyways?
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
CatspawDTP In reply to Blaze-Drag [2012-10-09 22:30:30 +0000 UTC]
Oh, and by the way—thanks for watching!
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
CatspawDTP In reply to Blaze-Drag [2012-10-09 22:21:11 +0000 UTC]
I’m wavering on the idea of a teleporting unicorn, since it resembles the pegasus an awful lot. As I note in my latest post update, I’m rather taken with your proposal for the unicorn, though if I went with it I’d make it normal movement with the capture-ahead. Partly that’s to create the “easy to block in” thing you’re talking about.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Blaze-Drag In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-10 05:57:03 +0000 UTC]
Well I believe that's exactly what I was going for in my proposal for the unicorn, so I'm glad to see that it might actually work for the game. (I'm assuming that by "normal movement" you mean 2 stars along an arc, no turning) And yeah, I do honestly like the teleport capture idea, it's just that it seems like something that should be given to the princess instead in my opinion. After all, having a different capture method than the soldiers means that no soldier would be at a clear disadvantage to help banishing the princess. (Like how the unicorn was when the princess had the same attack, making it impossible for a unicorn to attack a princess on its own without being captured) Also, ending on the space she's capturing makes it easier to defend pieces from her. For instance a Unicorn could stand next to a princess, which wouldn't threaten the princess, but it would stop her from attacking that Earth Pony on the same arc. (Unicorn on S4D, Enemy Princess on S5D, and Ally Earth on M1D for example if you can't see it in your head. Princess only becomes threatened once she tries to take the Earth pony) Also, I try to run some more banishment scenarios with these rules and see what I can come up with. My only worry is that it might be hard to banish with only a couple pieces when you can't really "block" a princess' teleport move. Also, I just realized that now 2 princesses could stand directly adjacent to each other, I just thought that was funny.
Oh, what is the current ruling on the whole "no capture in eclipse" thing? was that dropped altogether? I personally think that by the end of this we shouldn't need it, I just wanted to make sure I was up to date on that.
I'm starting to think that this is gonna deserve another post on EqD once we all finish these revisions. The game has evolved so much since it was first posted about.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
timgil In reply to Blaze-Drag [2012-10-10 09:03:59 +0000 UTC]
Princesses could effectively be blocked from capturing a piece, by guarding it, since they can't put themselves in eclipse.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Blaze-Drag In reply to timgil [2012-10-10 13:02:39 +0000 UTC]
What I meant is that you can't place a piece next to it, and impede its movement to spaces you haven't covered. So for instance, placing a (preferably guarded) bishop cardinally adjacent to a queen. It only attacks 2 of the squares she can move to, but you stop the queen from moving an entire direction, even though you're only covering 1 of the spaces in that direction. With this, you have to directly cover every space she can get to, and the doughnut is a fairly decent range to cover when you have only a few pieces. I'm not saying it's impossible, far from, just that it might be harder than before. Although it does look like it might be easier to force her to go in at least a certain direction, which would make forcing a banishment easier, as you could probably force her to the edge.
I'm gonna try running some scenarios to find low-piece banishment positions for these proposals later anyways.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
CatspawDTP In reply to Blaze-Drag [2012-10-10 06:58:00 +0000 UTC]
By “normal” movement I meant “not teleporting”—in other words, subject to being blocked by obstacles. But yes, the limit of two stars along an arc I think could work well, pending proving out in testing.
I like your idea of using TopGull’s unicorn for the princess instead, and I’m considering returning to the idea of moving or capturing for the princess, also. Of course, both of those need to be tested as well.
“No capture in eclipse” hasn’t been dropped yet, but it may be once the dust settles and the smoke clears.
You may be right about another post. I just hope Phoe doesn’t think I sold her a pig in a poke the first time around!
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Blaze-Drag In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-10 17:32:36 +0000 UTC]
Yeah, I could see the Teleporting princess as either having that as her movement as well, or something else entirely. It would be interesting, as capturing pieces would allow her to get away with things she usually can't, but at the same time it would probably be much simpler to just have the teleport be her movement and attack. However, it would make her easier to pin down if she had a more mundane movement, like what the Unicorn has with my suggestion. Like I said, I'll try seeing what kind of scenarios it takes to banish with low pieces when the princess can teleport, so I'll gt back to you on that. Otherwise I'm pretty much on the edge of keeping her movement as a teleport, or switching it to something else. Just not sure which one I like more right now.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
timgil In reply to Blaze-Drag [2012-10-11 02:45:44 +0000 UTC]
Why not have her only teleport if capturing, with Earth Pony + flyover movement otherwise (as per your hybrid idea)? The teleport would have to be limited, it should not cover her entire movement range, I don't think. Limiting it to the two star doughnut, as per the current unicorn seems like it would work.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
CatspawDTP In reply to Blaze-Drag [2012-10-10 20:53:28 +0000 UTC]
Yeah, the princess consistently has been the biggest difficulty, followed by the unicorn. If you’re able to look at the different variations—move or capture as well as move and capture—please do.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Blaze-Drag In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-12 05:56:19 +0000 UTC]
Well 3 down 1 to go as it were. Unfortunately I'm finding it fairly difficult to banish the princess with the current teleport movement range. While the movement range is still 12, the scope of her movement just seems like too much to reasonably banish with any less than a 3 piece advantage, even when assuming that the princess can't capture in eclipse it still usually takes at least 3 soldiers. (I did find one set up that only requires an Earth and Pegasus, but even then you still need your princess to help, and all the other situations assume your princess is helping too). Not to mention that that's not even taking into account whether you can force those situations on your opponent, which is fairly unlikely unless your opponent just gives up.
Basically I think the princess needs less scope in her movement, whether that means changing her move entirely, or possibly breaking the 12 star rule we've been using would be up in the air. And in case you don't understand what I'm saying by her "scope" of movement. What I mean is like how you could have a piece like, lets say the earth pony, and another piece that's like a modified pegasus. Lets say his new rules are that he can fly exactly 6 spaces over any number of pieces. This pegasus has only half the movement spaces, but a much larger scope of movement, and is thus harder to pin. That's an extreme example though, but even if that piece weren't allowed to fly, it'd still be pretty hard to pin it down, as you'd probably have to surround it completely. I'm not sure what changes to make right now, but I'll tell you if I think of anything.
Also, I don't think I see anything in the rules for what happens when the princess is your last piece and you get her into a position where she can't move legally, but she's not under threat. In chess, that would be a stalemate, but I feel like it would make more sense if it were a form of banishment here. After all, you trapped the princess with nobody left to bail her out.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
CatspawDTP In reply to Blaze-Drag [2012-10-12 15:44:58 +0000 UTC]
Hmm. I was afraid of that, but I’d hoped it wouldn’t be a critical issue. Back to the drawing board. Please tell me the unicorn at least works well.
It sounds like what’s needed for the princess is a smaller “footprint”, in terms of range, ending positions, and capture, all three. Since the soldiers’ footprints are twelve stars each, about the only alternative for the princess is six stars. The range of the soldiers is two or three stars, which only leaves the princess with one star to two stars; I’m guessing even the latter may be too far.
Can you hear me grinding my teeth?
I’ll have to think about the last-piece thing.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Blaze-Drag In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-13 01:35:38 +0000 UTC]
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I could hear you grinding your teeth as soon as I found a total of only 1 very unlikely situation for banishment with only 2 soldiers and a princess. (Earth, Enemy princess, Pegasus, Princess; all in a row along the same arc) I do think thought that the unicorn is fine as it currently is, we just need to work something out for the princess.
Now, if you think about the idea of making it act like any piece, but with 1 less movement, then lets see what we end up with. Basically, we have a piece that can move 1 or 2 spaces along an arc, allowed to jump, no turning, then it can capture either infront, behind, or where it lands. Well if you think about it, it's got the movement of a Unicorn, the ability of a Pegasus, and the attack of all three. However that gives it an attack range of 18 stars. If we changed that to just the attack of an Earth, then we have another concept for a hybrid princess that might work. I can already see more situations for banishment, even taking into account the princess trying to capture pieces. It might be worth a shot for people to try out.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
CatspawDTP In reply to Blaze-Drag [2012-10-13 05:52:05 +0000 UTC]
I’m starting to consider more seriously the idea of forbidding capture entirely for the princess. It really does seem that any capturing ability makes it too powerful.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Blaze-Drag In reply to CatspawDTP [2012-10-08 21:19:30 +0000 UTC]
Yeah, the only reason I'm somewhat against the Teleport attack is that it infringes on the pegasus by virtue of basically also being a method of jumping pieces, and I personally would rather the Unicorn have something unique to them. Earth ponies are the traditional pieces that capture normally and can move more agile. Pegasus has range and the ability to capture pieces by jumping over them. So Unicorns should be unique too, rather than basically having a slightly different method of jumping pieces. The Sniping attack would make them completely unique, it's just that it needs to be modified so that they move in some way when they attack. It doesn't really matter how they move, just that they move at all, because that means that situations can and will be set up that would discourage a Unicorn's attack. Whether it be moving backwards and hence not being able to attack the same space twice in a row and possibly being unable to attack because their own pieces block them, or moving just a little bit forwards such that the space could be defended by an opposing soldier. Actually, it would kind of be interesting if they landed before their target when they attack, considering that the Earth lands on the target, and Pegasus lands after.
Also, if the Teleport-style attack doesn't get used for the Unicorn, it could make for a good attack on the princess. After all, the princess is already a combination of the other tribes, so it doesn't really matter if they infringe on other abilities. Not to mention that if the unicorn doesn't end up using it, it would make the Princess have a different method of capturing than all the other tribes that at the same time seems to use elements from each of the tribes.
I'm still thinking of specifics though that could make the Unicorn's Snipe attack work in such a way so that it leaves a spot of vulnerability. Perhaps if it had to move up so that it was adjacent to the enemy first, then snipe it. However if the enemy was already adjacent, then you can't attack it. Or maybe if an enemy is adjacent at the beginning of the turn, the Unicorn can't attack at all, so all it can do is move away.
Perhaps it could be similar, yet the opposite to the Pegasus in terms of attack range. Okay, so the Unicorn's movement stays the same (2 spaces along an arc, no turning), then when it moves at least one space, it can attack the space ahead of it along the same arc. So if a Unicorn starts on S4A then moves to S4B, it can then take the piece on S4C; or moving along that same arc to S4C could allow it to take a piece on S4D. If it wants to attack a piece on S1A from S4A, it needs to move to space S2A, then it can take the piece. This would actually give the Unicorn the longest attack range, but it would be completely useless at close range as it has to move along the same arc in order to attack. So not only would a piece placed next to a unicorn be safe, but it would prevent the unicorn from attacking, or even moving in that direction. Also, you could defend from a unicorn's attack pretty easily with a Pegasus placed behind the targeted piece, an Earth pony to the side, or even a Unicorn slightly farther off to the side. It also maintains the 12 movement, 12 threat thing.
👍: 0 ⏩: 3
timgil In reply to Blaze-Drag [2012-10-09 04:30:21 +0000 UTC]
Also, I really don't like the implications of giving this move to the princess, even you seem hesitant on this front, allowing for the possibility of giving the teleport capture to the princess. This would eliminate any aspect of the traditional unicorn from the princess however, if all unicorns are not changed so.
If given to the princess, the move then shoot rule seems like it has the potential to obviate the no capture during eclipse rule. If a princess is in eclipse, then moves out of eclipse, what's to stop her from then taking the now vulnerable piece? A rule put in place specifically to prevent this seems like it'd be confusing, and I can think of no story related reason why such a move should be disallowed.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
timgil In reply to Blaze-Drag [2012-10-09 04:09:52 +0000 UTC]
I find this proposal to be rather confusing to be honest, and rather complicated to remember when playing (at the very least it is not intuitive). Also not a fan of giving the unicorn the largest attack range, as I feel that should logically belong to the pegasus. Also, perhaps trivially, I can imagine no story reason as to why a unicorn could move adjacent to a pony and capture them, but can't capture a pony that starts adjacent to them (I assume you'd have to make it illegal to move forward then backward ending on the same star). Finally, I don't like the idea of a move then shoot piece. Earth ponies and pegasi both move and capture simultaneously which to me is most preferable. Current unicorns move or shoot, which is next best (to me) but leads to the sniping problem.
What I like about the teleport capture is that even if it circumvents enemy soldiers, it still leaves the unicorn vulnerable to them. Unlike the pegasus, who captures them, the unicorn would ignore them, much like a knight chess piece. Passing an Earth Pony leaves it in danger, as might passing a pegasus, though there is no danger in passing another unicorn.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Blaze-Drag In reply to timgil [2012-10-09 07:51:27 +0000 UTC]
Sorry if I miss something, I typed up a fairly lengthy response, then something happened and it was erased. This will probably be briefer.
(Just to be clear, I am talking about the Second of my proposals where the Unicorn can move 1 or 2 spaces along an arc, then attack the space directly ahead of them along the same arc.)
1) Moving forward and back
Just real quick, I'm not sure what you mean by moving back and forth to attack an enemy adjacent to where you started. Pieces are restricted to only moving in one direction when they move, and only Earth ponies can even turn a corner during their move. Even then though, I don't think it counts if you just forward and back as an earth pony. So basically, I believe what you're saying is already illegal, so I don't understand the issue here.
2) The Conceptual Side
Here's how I interpret the rules in a more narrative form.
A unicorn needs to prepare the spell, or at least concentrate, in order to actually cast magic. Like a Wizard in D&D, trying to cast near an enemy is a bad idea, as it provokes attacks while you're vulnerable. (See: Sweetie Belle flicking Rarity's horn to stop her casting magic) So the unicorn has to prepare her spell either before or while she moves, then she casts it at the enemy she's running towards since that's who she'll have the best shot at.
A pegasus obviously takes as much advantage of her ability to fly as she can, and it also makes them the fastest, hence the larger movement range. However pegasi have low stamina, so in order to attack, they have to make use of their air-based advantage. (hence the attack by leaping) They also end up running out of stamina by the time they fly to the third space, so they don't have the energy to attack anyone there.
Meanwhile the earth pony, knowing that they can't outpace the pegasus, focus their energy more on agility and taking advantage of terrain as much as they can. (Turning during their movement) Being the strongest physically, they also simply fight their enemies head-on taking on whoever they come across directly.
3) The specifics of the Mechanics
I personally think that the rules I proposed for the Unicorn are fairly simple, although considering my brain thought them up, I guess I'd better hope that I understand them. Basically it's the rules for the Pegasus, but switching around the Movement and Attack. If they don't move, then they don't do anything, just like any other piece. However if they move, then they can attack the space directly ahead of them on that arc. I guess it might be easier to see with a diagram perhaps? (This uses TopGull's Hex-Grid thing cause it's easier to draw on. I just don't really see how it's not intuitive, just move one or two spaces then attack the next. (Red is threat spaces, Green is where they can move)
[link]
4) The Teleport Move and The Princess
I'm not really against the teleport move as a concept, but I personally think it shouldn't be given to the Unicorn because it infringes on what makes the other pieces unique. Yeah sure it does it in a somewhat different way, but the practical upshot is similar. The teleport move in its current incarnation would allow the unicorn to avoid obstacles (What makes the pegasus unique), and it would allow it to end its turn on a different arc than it began on. (what makes the earth pony unique) Not to mention that as a result of using elements from the other two tribes, it doesn't really make anything unique for the unicorns themselves. That's why I think it would work better for the princesses. It incorporates a little from pegasi and earths, and it could have the movement of a unicorn. (Not to mention the ability itself is still technically very unicorn). Not to mention that by giving the Princess a unique attack to the other three tribes, which means that no piece is at a disadvantage when attacking her. (Each piece can't attack another piece of the same type without back-up, as getting into range to attack that piece also puts you in range of that piece no matter what. So a Princess with the attack of a Unicorn means that Unicorns are at an inherent disadvantage. Same as if it had the attack of either of the other two as well.) Not to mention that with this method, the unicorn becomes vulnerable by the simple virtue of ending on a different space closer to their target. For instance, just off the top of my head, you can defend against enemy unicorns by placing a pegasus or unicorn directly behind the piece you want to defend. If the Unicorn takes the piece, either of those could take the unicorn back; and an Earth pony could defend by being off to the side and threatening the square in front of the piece you're protecting.
Oh, and if I heard correctly, I believe that a unicorn can't actually "Wink" past obstacles. I believe that it normally only works for teleporting to locations they could've walked to anyways. At least I think that's how it worked in G1. The only time a unicorn has broken that to my knowledge is when Twilight teleported from the middle of town to the library in "The Ticket Master," but it was involuntary, left them a bit singed, and the front door might've been left open anyways. Actually, I just checked, and it was (That's why she couldn't just teleport across the valley to get away from the hydra, or out of the caves Chrysalis locked her in. However an Alicorn can fly as well, so they would logically be able to get past obstacles they could've flown over. Although they still wouldn't be able to go through solid walls in a closed room and stuff like that unless there's some open path to the other side.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
timgil In reply to Blaze-Drag [2012-10-10 08:57:18 +0000 UTC]
I mentioned this to Catspaw-DTP-Services about the circumnavigating obstacles issue. The Earth pony has multiple routes to any one star, allowing them to go around a single obstacle. Pegasus can flyover a single obstacle. Unicorns are currently the only race that cannot circumnavigate any obstacle. I think of the teleport move akin to a knight in chess. A knight can't be blocked from any space he can reach, he can only be guarded against. Same with the unicorn here. The pegasus flyover is just like a checkers piece jump capture. The Earth Pony has no analogue as far as I know.
I also take issue with a unicorn being given the farthest attack range. For almost any spell in the show, a unicorn could only affect things from a mid to short range. The only exceptions I can think of are Twilight and the Ursa, and Shining's Love enhanced shield. I much prefer the unicorn to be mid-range rather than long range.
I'll admit, your story reasoning is pretty sound though. I'm just personally not a fan of a move then capture rule.
In regards to the not move forward and back rule; currently, there is no reason that such a move might be used, so it needn't be banned. If your rule were to be put into effect, such a maneuver ought to be specifically outlawed.
Also, I don't know if you consider a ball an obstacle, bet Twilight did teleport inside one from a bush, and with the Ticket Master, she definitely teleported past the crowd of ponies, which are practically all the obstacles in the game.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
| Next =>