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CodeHeaven In reply to NoNameDrawing123 [2016-05-08 15:18:00 +0000 UTC]

She grew closer to Lee in part 1 so it's normal.

Also Lee loved (in a bro way) Neji more than any other character. Only Hinata cared about Neji nearly as much as Lee did.

So I'll never understand why haters believe that TenTen is Neji's miserable fangirl, when Kishimoto has stated quite clearly that she's the opposite.

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NoNameDrawing123 In reply to CodeHeaven [2016-05-08 15:33:29 +0000 UTC]

I agree, I don't really see NejiTen at ALL. I don't really get where people got that. But if people came up with NaruSaku then anything is possible.

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Koshej In reply to NoNameDrawing123 [2016-05-09 04:43:06 +0000 UTC]

Well, IF Neji didn't die - either way might have been possible.
But 1010 is mostly called useless for different reasons - and let's be honest, she suffers from the very same "women inferiority" complex that *Kishi* has towards everyone (Hinata being the major victim, though, what with her Hamurafication STILL leading nowhere as far as actual battle scenes go).

Additionally (just not to post another post, lol):
I dislike Sakura for very different reasons - not because SasuSaku is necessarily "abusive" (it kinda did START that way, but that's not MY point).
No, MY beef is rather that it's "empty" - I don't see a single REASON for WHY Sakura had been clinging to this "fantasy" for so long.
I mean, sure, IN THE END it had worked out, true - but what about those THREE YEARS that she had been a faithful Sasuke-FANGIRL during the time that Sasuke was not just a criminal (kinda irrelevant to love life), but also I could literally see ZERO *reasons* for her to LIKE him in the first place.
I agree that I keep comparing her to Hinata (who had openly STATED *her* reasons for liking Naruto, and those reasons are actually very GOOD as well) - but, well, they DO "live" in the same manga, ya know.
Thus, I see the real problem NOT in that Sasuke was "cold" or "abusive" - but rather in that Sakura had been clinging to a *love fantasy* for YEARS, without having any good logical reasons to do so.
And again, it's NOT about reciprocation (or I would also fault Hinata, whereas I do the exact opposite) - it's solely about the REASONS behind clinging to this "love" (or a total LACK thereof).
And, unlike Hinata - Sakura had NOT stated her REASONS for liking Sasuke, not EVER.
She actually stated the opposite - that "she doesn't NEED reasons to love him", which was "agreed upon" by Kakashi AND Sasuke too.
And THAT I find to be outright STUPID.
Which is merely MY opinion - but so what.

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kyoandyuya In reply to Koshej [2016-12-21 01:07:44 +0000 UTC]

Sakura doesn't need any reason to love Sasuke and he to her. But that is precisely the point Kishi wants to make and I agree. As Kakashi said, you don't need a reason to love, only hate. If Sakura had reasons for her feelings, she would just be a shallow fangirl. It's been shown quite clearly that she had grown to love Sasuke for what he is and not merely because he's hot. Kishi made it a point to show that Sakura having a reason to love someone is ugly for her character through her fake confession. Because, take away your reason for loving someone and those "feelings" you harbor will fade. If that isn't superficial, I don't know what is.

And that, too, is my opinion.

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Koshej In reply to kyoandyuya [2016-12-21 09:35:44 +0000 UTC]

That's utterly incorrect (or at least worded wrongly), sorry.
Actually, you are missing MY point about what REASONS to love MEAN.
Parents love their children - the REASON being that "these are their children" (even if that's the ONLY reason there is, cause the child is an awful crazy criminal).
That's STILL a REASON, though - a CAUSE-EFFECT connection between the love-giver and the love-recipient.
The same goes for siblings - they normally love each other even if they generally don't like the other's personality.
But this type of life isn't a TRIGGERED one - it starts the moment the recipient is born (or when they consciously meet), without ANY action on their side.
It's different for unrelated couples.
There are many various REASONS why someone STARTS loving someone else - from utterly shallow (e.g. fangirl-style), to utterly noble (e.g. admiring the person's personality).
But "not having ANY REASONS" - sounds to me like a "car that has no engine, but is still running at 100 mph all by itself".
It's a self-contradiction.
LOVE needs a CAUSE-EFFECT "reason" to even exist - the POINT for which one person starts feeling something towards the other.
Heck, FRIEND is a good starting point here - it can then simply grow into a stronger emotion, but the REASON would be "I know that person, and I like what I see in them".
It's a CAUSE (friendship letting them know each other's personality well enough) and an EFFECT (that knowledge leading to the birth of stronger emotions).
So - WHAT of all that applies to Sakura's feelings towards Sasuke?

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kyoandyuya In reply to Koshej [2016-12-21 12:58:36 +0000 UTC]

So - WHAT of all that applies to Sakura's feelings towards Sasuke?

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps she had learned to love him because she was a witness to his most vulnerable moments? He even told her his status as an avenger way before he had that conversation with Kakashi about losing everything. She also witnessed him at his best along with Naruto. Not only that, Sasuke actually did care for them both and Kakashi's words about Sakura's feelings in itself brought forth a flashback of his family. She was the only one he actually thanked in the entire series. Even Shikamaru himself noticed their bond and referenced it after Sakura failed to convince Sasuke not to leave. "Even you couldn't convince Sasuke, right?" Now why would he say it like that if Sasuke didn't at least care for her?

Please don't throw the "abusive" card on me because being in an abusive relationship would require RELATIONSHIP which they didn't have and they were both enemies on the opposite sides of the war.

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Koshej In reply to kyoandyuya [2016-12-21 14:02:31 +0000 UTC]

I didn't say that Sasuke didn't have (twisted) feelings for Sakura.
I said that we never got to hear HER reasons for HER feelings - not HIS.

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kyoandyuya In reply to Koshej [2016-12-22 08:56:36 +0000 UTC]

And THAT is exactly Kishi's point in the story. See the only time she actually placed reasons for loving someone? She actually looked bad as a character. She's just a shallow fangirl who only cared  because of Sasuke's looks and not what he is as an individual using the fake confession as a plot device to demonstrate exactly that if she had turned away from him to Naruto just because he's the hero now.

And how was Sasuke's feelings twisted?

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Koshej In reply to kyoandyuya [2016-12-22 10:52:37 +0000 UTC]

Maybe it was because those "reasons" were (like some fan said very to the point):
"Everything the NaruSaku fans WANTED to be true - and yet ALL of that was said in a glaringly FAKE manner."
Basically, Sakura took ALL (or most) of the POSSIBLE reasons she MIGHT have had for ever falling for Naruto - and dumped them into a LYING CAN.
Some fans deduced this to be Kishi's trollish way of "showing NaruSakus THE FINGER", lol.

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kyoandyuya In reply to Koshej [2016-12-22 12:19:08 +0000 UTC]

Which was his point to begin with. Yeah, that's a great way of shutting down a ship.

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Dan-Kusanagi In reply to Koshej [2016-05-09 08:23:27 +0000 UTC]

Well, to be deadly honest, if anyone is to blame for the incredibly shitty relationships development is Kishimoto himself, since he is absolutely TERRIBLE when it comes to describing romance (hell, he even admited it himself), I'm not sure why he even bothered in the first place. Frankly speaking, all couples feel quarter-assed because of his incapability to understand how relationships work (and as I said before, I'm not trying to degrade him at all, but he DOES suck at romance).

All he did was push forward the "Damsel in distress" trope, so arguing who's the most "useful" female character in the series is pretty much a moot point and it's like beating a dead horse.

But yeah, you have a very valid point.

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Koshej In reply to Dan-Kusanagi [2016-05-09 08:51:52 +0000 UTC]

The problem with your (common) assessment is, that I don't see Hinata during the *manga* being anywhere near a "mere damsel".
If anything, she's a much more important character for Naruto's personal development than even Sasuke (while Sakura is not even a question, she's literally "plot ballast" like 99% of the time).
This is precisely why I like her so much - I seriously single her out of the huge multitude of characters I've seen in OVER 9000 anime (and other) series.
The real problem here isn't that Kishi "doesn't KNOW how write a good female" - he DOES, cue Hinata being so likable (and "special") and all.
The problem is that he "starts but never finishes" - he gives his females some plot boost (NOT a jutsu boost, lol), yet immediately afterwards makes everything possible for that female to NOT USE it AT ALL.
On the other end of the scale, his attempts to "make Sakura important to the plot" usually end up with him making her look WORSE (or STUPIDER), more often than not.
Basically, he gave Hinata all the capabilities to shine many times over - yet he kept throwing Sakura (or worse, Sasuke) into those very moments, effectively ruining BOTH at the same time.
Hinata makes Naruto not only cheer for her, but make a one-of-a-kind blood vow that he actually fulfills, and then gives him yet another one-of-a-character speech boost. Result? He forgets about her the moment Gaara attacks Sakura-CHAN. OK, whatever.
Hinata throws herself at Pain, gives another inspirational speech, confesses her first-person-ever love for him, and then nearly dies. Result? He doesn't even speak with her afterwards, even though he clearly remembers the whole event, as is seen from his own flashbacks. OK, less whatever.
Hinata yet again throws herself between him and death, then yet again throws a huge inspirational speech at him. Result? He thanks her for being there for him, yet it takes him two more fucking years to even realize her openly-stated feelings, and we get to see yet another stupid DiD moment that happens only due to Naruto's thick skull. NOT OK anymore, really.

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Dan-Kusanagi In reply to Koshej [2016-05-10 06:24:23 +0000 UTC]

Well, it IS true that Hinata played an important role in helping Naruto grow up, but at the same time she was only a sitting duck the majority of the series, her interaction with him was almost non-existent to the point that everyone in Japan (the target audience) moved on to NaruSaku, which despite the fact that no one wants to admit it, had by far THE best development in part two and quite possibly the best development of any couple, as borderline as it may seem (needless to say, even NaruSaku had extremely random "moments" and was always one sided; and considering it had the best development of all the couples...well, it makes all the others seem like an asspull). SasuSaku suffered a very similar problem: huge development in part one (hell, I'll even admit that Sasuke's departure scene was very touching), almost no interaction in part two, yet out of nowhere both NaruHina and SasuSaku ended up canon (though I believe it has to do with the fact that Kishimoto at a certain point of the series considered a NaruSaku ending, even if he later dismissed the idea; maybe he tried to push it forward at the start of part two, who knows).

Again, I'm not fond of Hinata, but also not a hater, I'm indifferent towards all females on the series.

When I mentioned about Kishimoto's inability to develop relationships, I exclusively limited to love (or at least that was my intention, if I gave another impression, my bad then), and you pretty much proved my point: Hinata was nearly killed by Pein and Naruto went all ape shit because of that, then after he gets back to Konoha, he pretends like Hinata never actually opened up her heart or suffered a near-death experience just for him and he just moved on. I mean, ¿why in the fuck did he even bother with such an intense and romantic moment if he made Naruto not give a single shit afterwards? That's why I implied he is bad at romance (and he admitted it himself).

As for the "Damsel in distress", you gotta admit "The Last" portrayed Hinata as such, and the plot itself was nothing short of terrible, and this is taking in consideration that Kishimoto WAS the mastermind behind it. Everything post-series feel utterly superfluous and vapid, there was no real point in creating both movies "The Last", "Boruto: The Movie" and the "Gaiden" series (by far THE worst thing to come out after the series ending, and the most useless one).

As for Sakura, I full on fucking agree with you, she only served as shipping fodder (no, I don't hate her, but she served little to no purpose, except forcing her to be "The Female Hero", which Kishimoto utterly failed to portray; kinda sad since she had a LOT of potential and could have been a VERY likeable character).

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Koshej In reply to Dan-Kusanagi [2016-05-10 07:13:41 +0000 UTC]

I'm not a (baseless or childish) Sakura hater - but I do have a lot of beef against her, while the opposite is with Hinata in the very same contexts.
Let's see.

1. Why does Sakura like (and even "love") Sasuke?
Nobody knows, even herself - except that "he's cool", lol.
More than that - she and others openly say that "she doesn't NEED a reason to *LOVE* him in the first place".
Sorry, WHAT?
While love is generally understood as "selfless" - it is NEVER in any way "reason-less".
Parents love their children and vice versa - precisely BECAUSE they're RELATIVES.
That IS the REASON behind their mutual love.
The same goes about married couples - they FIRST marry, and only THEN might come to truly LOVE each other AFTER having interacted for YEARS.
"Love from first sight" is NOT "love" - it's merely "passion" or "crush" AT BEST.
Love actually NEEDS reasons to develop - trust, respect, personal influence, mutual experience, etc.
This is what we DO see from Hinata - she is INSPIRED by Naruto, she ADMIRES and EMULATES his views.
While this alone does NOT constitute "love" - love DOES "feed off" such attitudes.
...
Hinata openly states her REASONS quite a few times - and that includes the "hand holding", which is when *Naruto* gets re-inspired by *Hinata's* admittance of how *he* had affected *her*.
Again, this is NOT the "sappy pink romantic love" of the "girl books" - which dies out just as quickly as it flickers to life, leaving angry husbands and abused wives in its wake.
This is rather the REALISTIC and SERIOUS *love-companionship* that REAL-LIFE (strong) families are built upon.
NaruHina IS such a relationship (despite how much Kishi tried to RUIN it, lol).
SasuSaku (and even more so, NaruSaku) - is NOT, though.

2. Why does Naruto like (no, he had NEVER used "love" towards her in the manga, that's FILLER troll baiting) Sakura?
He's a bit more vocal about it - but in the end, it boils down to "she likes Sasuke" and "I want to compete with Sasuke".
And THAT, (not so) surprisingly - is NOT FILLER whatsoever.
Naruto is really just a little immature orphan kid for most of the series - how would he KNOW what *true love* (which I define as the aforementioned "love-companionship") IS in the first place?
The fact that he ALSO compares his love for Hinata to his addiction to ramen - is quite telling of how immature he IS (on the other hand, though, there IS an interesting point behind this comparison, lol).
...
On the other hand, Naruto tends to pretty FREQUENTLY go out of his way for Hinata - he constantly singles her out by doing stuff that he doesn't ever do for anyone else.
He trusts her during the writing exam - while NOT trusting Kiba, even though they are BUDDIES. CHECK.
He shows much more personal feelings while cheering her fight, even though she's supposed to be "merely one of many" of his friends at that period. CHECK.
He trusts her over half-a-dozen of his "precious people" (Hiruzen, Iruka, Kakashi, Sakura, Sasuke) - to admit his fears about his personal weakness (to a person whom he himself calls "weird and dark", no less).
He makes one-of-a-kind blood vow to avenge her - but doesn't get (as much) angry at anybody else, including Temari (for nearly breaking 1010's back) or Gaara (for nearly killing Lee).
He actually fulfills that vow - whereas he later on CANCELS the "promise of a lifetime" to Sakura during her Failfession (he still wants to bring Sauce back, but NOT because of Sakura or his vow to her).
He basks in his first OFFICIAL victory (while he's cheered on by the entire crowd no less) - and WHO is on his mind? Is it Sakura-CHAN? (Hiruzen? Iruka? Kakashi? Sasuke?) NOPE - it's *Hinata*!
And so on, and so forth - while he never gets openly "romantic" towards her, he ALSO keeps acting openly differently whenever she is involved, and always in a POSITIVE sense (towards her).

Conclusion:
SasuSaku sucks - it's pointless and reason-less, merely being based off a childish girl crush that led both of them nowhere; it isn't abusive, but it is ass-pulled as far as "love" goes.
NaruHina rocks - it's really useful for both and also has perfectly logical reasons from both sides, and what's more, it reflects that what *I* consider to be REALLY IMPORTANT for REAL LIFE relationships, no less.
That's *MY* personal opinion, though - so you don't need to accept it.
But I do hope that you see the LOGIC behind what I said here.

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Dan-Kusanagi In reply to Koshej [2016-05-23 03:03:28 +0000 UTC]

I do, and I fully agree with you, there's no point debating that.

What I'm actually stating is if ANYONE is to blame for the shitty relationships development is Kishimoto himself, since he doesn't know a fuck about them (I mean, his oh-so-beloved SasuSaku ship is the representation of abusive relationship), yet he pretended to push forward both NaruHina and SasuSaku, even when NaruSaku was rampant on part 2, and until the ending of the series, nothing was really accomplished, even with his horrid "The Last" movie, "Gaiden" manga AND "Boruto: The Movie", in which ironically, he was the mastermind.

So, long-short story:

Kishimoto is terrible at romance, and pretty much EVERY couple feels half-assed because of his inability to write romance (unless he thinks women will actually wait for a man to return back her feelings after a fuck load of time and no fucks given about her confession; ie: NaruHina).

If anyone deserves the criticism is no one but him, not the characters.

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kyoandyuya In reply to Dan-Kusanagi [2016-12-21 01:24:00 +0000 UTC]

Abusive relationship? Do you even know what constitutes an abusive one? Because they were not even in a relationship when they started to kill each other. They were enemies in the opposite sides of the war. You can only call something an abusive relationship if they were in a R-E-L-A-T-I-O-N-S-H-I-P, which they're not. And have you been paying attention with what's been stated? He is under the Curse of Hatred and thus not in his right mind. If you can excuse Naruto's attack against Sakura during the earliest episode of Shippuden because he's in his kyuubi mode, then it's only fair to do the same to Sasuke's when it's made clear that the Sasuke deep in hatred is NOT the true Sasuke.

Seriously, read the manga again more objectively.

And no development? I'm sorry, but they already have a development in their genin days. The most prominent is during the Chuunin exam where Sasuke avenged Sakura getting beaten up by the Sound Ninja and him referring to her as one of his most precious people. And even during his "attempted murder" you can see him hesitating to attack because he is too slow for someone who's intent is to kill, unlike with Karin and Naruto. Choking is also not the best way of killing someone. He could have stabbed her just as fast as he did with Karin. Fact is, it took many panels for him to even come close to delivering the killing blow to Sakura and by then, both Kakashi and Naruto arrived in time to save her. Karin was not granted the same leniency.

Let's not forget that while he ignored the other members of the Rookie 9 INCLUDING Naruto during the war, he actually bothered explaining to Sakura of all people.

Tell me again how Sasusaku is abusive?

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Koshej In reply to Dan-Kusanagi [2016-05-23 07:16:07 +0000 UTC]

The common problem is that NaruSaku fans tend to ignore how DESPITE superficially being the way you just said - the manga is still very much PRO-NaruHina even fact-wise.
If anything, Naruto's own behavior towards Hinata had pretty much cemented NaruHina even as early as Part One - and that's the same Naruto who APPEARS to be still openly fawning over Sakura-CHAN, no less.
And then comes Shippingden (lol) - and not only we get more confirmations of this from Naruto's side, but Hinata herself grows A LOT as a character.
The REAL fuck-up of Kishimoto's, is pretty much the lack of INTERACTION between them past-Pain.
Sure, on one hand, it might have been disastrous to NaruHina (IF Naruto would say something like "I still like Sakura-chan MORE"; which is also NOT VERY LIKELY, though, given some of his reactions to certain events) - but on the other hand, it would have given us at least some CHANGE IN DEVELOPMENT.
Heck - just look at the PROTOTYPE, GokuChichi.
Chichi appears out of nowhere during the tournament, stays unrecognized, gets angrier at Goku by the minute, ends up pretty much shouting about his "marriage promise" at him, without him even realizing WHAT she means - and in the end, he STILL says, that while he kinda doesn't understand his feelings, he WILL TRY; and then they literally get married at the end of the arc.
The difference is that, while Goku HAD quite a lot of nice interaction with CHILD Chichi - he has had NONE with this ADOLESCENT Chichi up until she showed up and assaulted him with "marriage", totally CONFUSING him in the process.
If anything, GokuChichi is an example of a "marriage out of consent, not love" - and given how Goku tends to spend MORE time with King Kai than with his actually family...
Naruto, on the other hand, has A LOT of interaction with TEEN Hinata (and a bit with the CHILD one, but that's merely on her side, Naruto doesn't recall anything of it, whereas Goku obviously does recall his interaction with CHILD Chichi), he also behaves "strangely" towards her all the (major events) time.
Basically, what would have MADE SENSE- was for them to actually START dating either already during the war, or immediately afterwards.
NOT TWO FUCKING YEARS LATER!!!
And the stupid part is - they COULD still get MARRIED all those two years later, no prob, but they would have a SOLID BASIS for DOING THAT in the first place.
What Kishi DID, though, ended up making a BRAINLESS ASSHOLE out of Naruto and a SPINELESS AMOEBA out of Hinata.
BOTH. BEING. MANGA-FALSE!!!
Naruto DOES like Hinata, Hinata STOPPED being so unsure of herself.
And then comes The Last - and ADDS to this shit.
More than that, it turns Naruto into Goku "marriage-wise" - even though he has a totally DIFFERENT history of interaction with Hinata, compared to that of Goku and Chichi (like I explained above).
Naruto is suddenly again totally clueless toward Hinata - even though she had literally CONFESSED her feelings to him VERBALLY.
Is he DEAF?
Is he an IDIOT (literally, not just as an insult)?
But - NO, he's NEITHER.
It's just that Kishi *wanted to make them marry being older* - and let's IGNORE that they COULD have been DATING for YEARS before that, TOO.
I can only do this:

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