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HareTrinity β Friendship is Fickle
Published: 2012-12-07 16:46:14 +0000 UTC; Views: 7913; Favourites: 108; Downloads: 41
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Did most of this a week ago as practice. Picture will be moved to Scraps. It was wonky from the lines and I'd really have to start again to fix it all. There's a comic to go with it that sadly didn't come out much better: [link]Starting to feel like I'm the only DAer who didn't like One Bad Apple. To be honest I enjoyed most of it, despite how clichΓ©d it was, but not the ending. Not the ending at ALL.
Babs spent her whole visit hanging out with Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon, at the very least pretending to be their friend. The episode ended with her scaring them into mud even though, as far as we know, they'd been good friends to Babs: They shared their little rump-bump with her, they hung out with her for the visit, and unless they'd taken up train spotting it seems that they came to the station to say goodbye to her.
I'm not saying DT & SS aren't stuck-up little so-and-sos, and I know know lots of people wanted to see them dunked in mud, but they didn't deserve it from someone they thought was their friend.
I was bullied by my friends in school and it was horrible. NO ONE deserves that. And YES, I know it's possible that DT & SS didn't really like Babs, but WE DON'T KNOW THAT, and even if they didn't there's still no excuse for Babs turning on them so suddenly, ESPECIALLY given the episode's messages. I think it's in most ways worse than what Babs did to the CMC at the start because at that point (a) she hadn't really spent time with the CMC and (b) she apparently didn't know any better.
Ironically enough, one thing I DID learn from being bullied is that a bully's friends often have greater influence over them than adults, and if one of the bully's friends vouches for you then the bully themselves will probably back off. This was the perfect time for Babs to be honest with DT & SS instead of turning straight to intimidation tactics. That or for the CMC to question DT & SS on their motives (which could have had a stuck-up response and ended up with DT & SS accidentally storming off the platform all by themselves).
Instead, moments after we'd been told that bullies are people too, we had two little kids being portrayed as acceptable targets with no signs of it being deliberate irony.
You do not have to dislike the episode. I'm not trying to ruin it for you. I just personally have problems with how the ending was handled and hope other people can understand my points.
And I guess if you're a Babs fan then here's a pic with her drinking milkshake. Yay.
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Comments: 114
maybe you're right but it isn't gonna be easy. the ending was bad but Babs wasn't acting naturally, she just did what the writers made her do.
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Doesn't every character do what the writers tell them to do?
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there's a difference between that and the writers making a natural character development from what was established before.
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No, it's still controlled by them. Did your ''mom'' drop you on the head when you were born?
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again, difference between natural character development and "I'm the writer, I can make the characters do something totally random and nonsensical".
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But even the natural development is done by the writer so the character is always in control.
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True. They wanted her to come across as bold and defensive but instead she was aggressive.
"I want to be friends with you and the CMC but you'll have to stop treating them like this for that to happen" or similar from Babs, even if DT had just been mean about it, would have been much better.
Funnily enough, being friendly to bullies and/or befriending their friends CAN work to stop bullying (I never had much luck with telling adults but once or twice a bully stood up for me because I'd been nice to them). You'd think this show would have made more of an effort to stress that message.
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yeah, I agree with you, I just don't hate Babs for it.
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Fair enough. 
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I'd say she did just that in "Apple Family Reunion".
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like I said, Babs isn't really to blame here, the writers are. and as we've seen in other episodes, Diamond Tiara is to stuck in bully mode to just back down, she needs therapy. at the very least, the CMC have to make the first kind act to HER.
and Babs was okay in her next apperence.
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I will hang out with you no more!
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yeah, that ending was bad. but I blame the writers and not Babs. not saying you are, just pointing that out.
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we don't talk about the writers bro
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You're right, of course: They wanted her to be liked but did a very poor job at the ending. The result is that I don't like Babs, but that's the writers' fault, not that the character she's meant to be isn't likeable.
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but either way, I still think Babs can be a good character.
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I think her next apperence made up for it.
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I too dislike the ending, but that's the problem with 20 minute episodes, kinda hard to make a satisfying ending on shows like this.
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Plenty of 11 minute shows manage it. I've also seen several shows double in length for a season (e.g. Twilight Zone, Metalocalypse) and DEVELOP the problem of rushed and unsatisfactory endings. It must be pacing rather than time limit.
Maybe the writers need to plan to leave extra time for the ending.
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I guess that's true. I'm just hoping season 4 doesn't have the same problem as season 3. I like season 3 and all, but for me the endings for most of the episodes just seems rushed.
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I didn't really like em but thus really made me sad..I mean u had a very great friend than suddenly they leave u
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Yeah... 
Fingers crossed.
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You know, I disliked DT for her bullying. And seeing her getting her just deserts like that made me happy and at the end of that episode I didn't think much about it. However after I read your comic and your arguments, I've reconsidered. Maybe she's a Scrooge like character and will change sometime in the future.
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I get that people wanted to see her dunked in mud, I just didn't like HOW they did it... I remain hopeful she'll get more character development later on though!
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Yeah, I'm with you on this. Everyone seems to like Babs Seed for the some reason, but she just comes off as an arrogant hypocrite, regardless of whether she was being bullied. In fact, her personality is probably the reason why she was being bullied.
Worst pony.
DT and SS have had their good moments. SS was first to applaud Granny Smith's speech in that founding of Ponyville episode, and DT was great throughout the entirity of the Gabby Gums ep (I'm a journalist myself, so I'm probably biased).
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Yeah, she was pretty unlikeable and it seemed petty that she was forgiven just because they found out what her motive was. Some people are headcanoning that she was a bully at her home town and that her being late to get a cutie mark turned the tables on her there... It rather makes sense, especially since she was so quick to become such an efficient bully! It's rather irritating that Babs got off with just a talk whilst DT, SS, and even the CMC got covered in mud for doing so much less.
And yes: DT & SS have that, plus DT loving her dad (those big attentive eyes and happy little smile whilst he was putting everyone else to sleep). Plus everything points to Filthy Rich being a great guy who's genuinely concerned if he thinks his daughter isn't mixing well with others (e.g. making her wear the bunny suit) and that gives me hope that DT will get more character development at some point.
I don't see where all the love for Babs comes from but at least she wasn't annoying in AFR (though I'd rather have seen more of AB's other cousins).
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I'm making that my headcanon now.
Maybe Babs will get a proper redeeming moment later on, but I doubt it. I don't think her accent works particularly well on a pony, either. The other ponies are cartoony but hers is a little too "real world", if that makes sense.
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Yeah. :/ Oh well. Fingers crossed for the future!
Maybe she'll just disappear, like Twist practically did.
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Wow, you perfectly encapsulated my feelings on this episode's ending. I thought it was a great ep until the last minute, but the ending was just mean and hypocritical. Now that Babs has humiliated DT and SS, they'll probably try to find a way to get back at the CMC for "stealing" their friend, and then the cycle of bullying will just continue. Babs, or even better, Applejack (there's a grownup standing right there, what the hell) should have just talked to them.
I'll admit I have a soft spot for Tiara and Spoon, even if they are a couple of meanies. I wish the show would portray them less one-dimensionally.
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Same! There were many ways they could have handled that ending but this version was surprisingly mean and lacking adult intervention! It really soured the ep for me.
And yes, I too hope that DT and SS get more character development in the future. What they've had so far has been pretty subtle (DT's love for her father though he sometimes forces her to mingle with those she dislikes, SS being the first to clap for Granny Smith's story) but I'm happy it's there.
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Yes. I give you all my yes.
I hate this episode. Well, maybe not that much as 2 Crystal Empire episodes, but doing something bad as those is not simple, you need to make a lot of effort in order to do this. So let's say this episode have Mare Do Well level of awfulness.
You've just showed me another reason to hate this episode, besides:
*Stupid reason, why CMC didn't tell anypony about it.
*Complete ignorance of CMC troubles, by their family/friends. Okay Scootaloo is an orphan, apparently, Rarity is back to state of horrible sister, after that one episode in past, but Applejack?
*Lack of evidence of Babs bullying. Did I remember it wrongly, or whole thing about this bullying we get is "Oh, and she was bullied." from Applejack. Show, not tell? It's to manestream apparently.
*Complete lack of concern showed by Applejack, despite the fact, that CMC wanted deliberately throw some other foal of the cliff. And that foal also happened to be under *her* responsibility. However Applejack seems to take things rather well.
*Pinkie Pie being unfunny, but I'm okay with this as long as my theory that in previous episode they left wrong Pinkie will turn out true.
*And the cherry on the top of pile of shit - this. Really, I'm really disappointed at fandom, who spams "Love and Tolerance" slogans, and then want jerks to be beaten up/raped/whatever. Even foals - children, damn it!
Fortunately two last episodes of this season are passable (okay maybe last one was even good, but not awesome), so maybe it will get better. Still, I will expect the worst - in this way I can only get pleasant disappointments, right?
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I was very unimpressed by The Crystal Empire eps too. The animation was full of errors and uncomfortable poses, the pacing was horrid, every pony other than Twilight was ignored, and Sombra... Ugh.
And yeah, One Bad Apple felt pretty forced until the end, though I wasn't as bored as with The Crystal Empire. OBA would have been merely I-don't-care tier for me without that ending, but it was not to be...
Other than TCE (1+2) and OBA, however, I don't think the series is doing too badly and have enjoyed several of the others. We're about half way through the series, here's hoping the next half is enough to make up for the bad!
(Though I won't get my hopes up for the one re-featuring Babs.)
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Lack of evidence?
She deliberately sided with two ponies who quite obviously hated them, trashed their float (That took at least multiple days' work to construct), chased them around Ponyville for the sake of terrorizing their everyday life during the music montage, kicked them out of their own clubhouse, according to Apple Bloom's personal testimony, forced her to sleep on the floor while stealing her bed, and moved 2/3 (Or maybe only 1/3?) to tears.
I'd say that that's sufficient evidence.
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Sorry, my typo. I've meant no evidence that Babs was being bullied. As far as I remember it was only mentioned by AJ in few words, and then suddenly throwing her of cliff was not OK.
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I don't think you're reading this quite as you're intended to be. Babs wasn't directly threatening DT/SS. Her threat was not physical abuse, but to "tell their mothers about their bad behavior." It well-accompanies the episode's "Letter to Celestia" moral of getting word about bullies out as you should.
In addition, to say that she didn't deserve it is nothing short of being stubborn. Diamond Tiara is unique amongst the show's villains because she is horribly nasty for no reason, and is likely to stay that way as a clever analogy for the mean people little girls will encounter in their lives (As the CMCs are clever analogies for actual little girls). You are not supposed to sympathize with such a one-dimensional character. Ever.
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Babs deliberately scared them off the platform. DT & SS, for all their lack of character building, are still 2 little kids, and really did very little in the episode (especially compared to Babs, the only filly not to get covered in mud).
Ponyville Confidential played the "laugh at DT's misfortune" card a lot better in that (a) she slipped into the ink by accident and (b) the episode's message didn't directly contradict that humour (unless you interpreted it as being "don't take joy in the misfortune of others" I suppose, but that'd be a stretch).
If the staff couldn't foresee that DT having fans and people expecting ALL the characters of MLP:FIM to be treated as characters then they may be writing for the wrong show.
And honestly, having the "bully" trope played straight can't be counted as a "clever analogy" either. It's shallow and generally only played for plot/laughs. It only gets worse if you think the way to stand up to mean people is to have a friend intimidate them, especially if that friend lives in a different city.
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Yes. That's precisely what I mean. Diamond Tiara has no depth because she's a bully trope, used strictly for plotline purposes. She has no depth to her, similar to what some of us saw for Trixie when she first appeared in the show.
The only difference being, there's no redeeming quality to search for. Most people of Diamond Tiara's breed are *supposedly* bullies to cover up their own insecurities. What insecurities could she possibly have? She's got it in her to make friends (Silver Spoon), a cutie mark which foretells of rich living, and a father who loves and cares about her--and enough money to buy anything a school-aged filly could possibly want. What fault could there possibly be in her life?
See? A character so flat, they can turn sideways and become invisible. I would love to see an episode about Silver Spoon, who I believe merely lurks with DT to spare herself her wrath, but until proven otherwise I won't see Diamond for anything except the absolute bitch she's supposed to be. And I reiterate that it's the design of the show to hate Diamond. I'm flabbergasted to discover she does have fans.
I was in fact going to mention Ponyville Confidential in my rebuttal, but it looks like you've already done it for me. Yes, it appears that it's becoming a trend to see the brat get what's coming to her at the end of an episode featuring her. And, I say, is there any harm in that? I consider schadenfreude within moderation to be quite a healthy, enjoyable activity. A good message to send out to the kids, maybe not, but I enjoyed the way they rounded off the show, and it's just as much our show as it is theirs now.
The only point I'll give you is that the CMC did wrong in letting Babs stand up for them rather than doing it themselves (Though I consider it very sweet that she did so as a form of apology). The staff has confirmed, much to your own chagrin, that she will return in a later episode--maybe to help them learn to deal with DT/SS? Maybe we'll finally get some insight into Silver and Diamond's ways? It's too early to guess correctly, but it's too early for anything to be wrong, either.
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Babs: -Enjoying her milkshake, then she notices Tiara and Silver next to her- YOU!!!
-Some time later-
Babs: -She just knocked the two into the mud, then she continues to enjoy her milkshake-
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YES YES YES YES YES
THANK YOU! This is EXACTLY how I feel.
One Bad Apple is actually one of my LEAST favorite episodes of MLP. Granted, The Last Roundup (don't give me that bullshit that Derpy talked in that episode. It was incredibly OOC and the Mane 6, except for Applejack, were absurdly narrow-minded and cruel) and perhaps a few other episodes were worse, but it really disappointed me. Why? Because Babs was a completely ruined generic mess of a character, Diamond Tiara had literally no wit in that episode (every time I hear the lame-kin insult, my rage grows...), it was a generic moral based episode that took no chances...except for one that ruined the episode for me. Apple Bloom's wit > Diamond Tiara's wit. That was so OOC it threw me for two loops.
Now, let's talk about the ending. Forgiving the fact that I love Diamond Tiara, it was terrible, for all of the points you just mentioned. Babs and the CMC didn't get punished even though THEY were the ones tormenting the other, and Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon were scapegoated. Again. With an insult that might not even be true. Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon do NOT have canon mothers, so for all we know, they could have simply misheard her and got karma for no reason at all. Again, DT getting karma is nothing new (which REALLY pisses me off) but damn, that was an incredibly stupid ending. One Bad Apple truly was a bad apple.
Don't get me wrong, I still love the show and will continue to watch it, but episodes like this concern me. Hopefully today's CMC episode will be MUCH better. I have hope in the writers; they gave us Ponyville Confidential, an episode I LOVED due to DT's development, and the fact that the CMC were actually decent in it.
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Finally replying, woo!
Yay, someone else who doesn't love TLR! To be fair my main problems with it were that I found it exceedingly dull (I guessed the "twist" at the start and wanted them to get it over with and focus on the solution, which sadly they never got to at all), and that it isn't an Applejack episode. In fact it's no more about Applejack than Party of One is about everyone-but-Pinkie. Bleh.
But yes, OBA rates very low on my list of episodes, possibly the worst since debates afterwards proved just how many people didn't get the "bullies are people too" message.
Diamond Tiara was very poorly written, we don't even know why she and SS were at the farm at the start (they'd never stalked the CMC before) and her lines... Yeah. They were bad. And I think I've already made my stance on the quality of the "morals" clear.
And yeah, thankfully the episode doesn't ruin the show! I suppose all series are sure to have some terrible ones, it's just far more frustrating when you feel alone in your opinions. I think the season will have trouble getting worse than OBA though. 
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Why haven't I met you earlier? Really, we have incredibly similar mindsets, so anytime you want to talk about MLP about things you don't like, I'm pretty sure I'll agree with you.
Oh yeah, I completely agree. Again, this further proves my theory that a good deal of people tend to possess overall narrow-mindedness. This describes Diamond Tiara haters in a nutshell: "OH NOES DIA-MUN T-ARA IZ TEH BABS, I NO LIEK HUR." Have I mentioned how much I despise this? In fact, it drove me to the point of creating a fan fic revolving around Diamond Tiara, known as A Diamond in the Rough. Not to self-promote, but I could easily link you the edited version of it if you want.
The writers in that episode treated Diamond Tiara like garbage. GARBAGE. There is absolutely no respect in the actual episodes for my favorite character, and as such, I'm beginning to dread every single episode with her in it, as I'm CERTAIN that Ponyville Confidential is the only development poor Diamond will get. Seriously, poor Diamond...
Oh, and to me, moral-based episodes in fiction are almost always generic and ruin a good story. Just throwing that out there.
Again, I agree. There will always be a few bad apples, but so far, the harvest is continuing nicely. I really enjoyed the last two episodes, and I hope this streak continues.
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It's LATE RESPONSE time!
And yay for agreed disagreement!
My favourite characterisation of DT was in FAD, when she was the only one awake for her dad's lecture with those big eyes and obvious adoration... So cute! I really hope they don't forget that, nor that Silver Spoon is empathetic and caring. Maybe it'll just vary between writers?
I really should have headed off 80mins ago but ended up roughly finishing the One Bad Apple comic I did so that I could put something up for 20/12/2012 (the last date like that I'll see), so I'll bookmark your gallery for now and check it out later (assuming the story's there).
I have mixed feelings for the next ep: I'm an AJ fan but I think Babs will be in it... Fingers crossed it'll go well!
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Indeed.
I liked FAD, and I agree, her appreciation for her father's speech was pretty cute. And yeah, Silver Spoon does have a nice side as well.
However, what I don't want is for Spoon to LEAVE Diamond Tiara because of that nice side. Despite Diamond's attitude, Diamond and Spoon are "besties", y'know, friends til the end. This is one of the several things they can do to Diamond and Spoon's character that might make me do this: 
I'll link you the story: [link]
I'm currently editing it, but I'm almost done with it (15/22 chapters completely edited).
I'm rather happy that the next episode is an AJ one, being that AJ is second best Mane 6 (second only to Twilight). Also, if they characterize Babs better, I'll welcome her return, because I DO want to like her. We'll see what happens.
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My own thoughts were along similar lines, except I do like Babs and the episode. Sure, the message is muddled, the song is a bit forgettable (great fun to listen to, but out of mind the second it is over for me), the writing for DT and Spoon was weaksauce, and so on, but the episode has a ton of CMC cuteness. I'm a sucker for CMC cuteness
Babs is a born bully though. She slipped naturally into it and had no regrets. The moment after she destroyed the pumpkin float, did she look back over her shoulder with any type of remorse? Nope. And from that moment on, she was the leader of the bully pack, the instigator of various things, including lots of physical things like stealing that DT and Spoon were never shown doing previously. Even when the dynamic duo weren't around, she bullied the CMC. Finally, she decides to join the CMC and what is the first thing she does? She bullies her former two friends. Bad seed indeed.
I'm pretty sure that if she had gotten her cutie mark already, she'd have been part of the problem for some other poor kid in Manehatten. My headcanon about her is starting to develop along the lines that she bullied kids in Manehatten, until they started to get cutie marks and turned on her, took her from bully to bullied.
It also annoys me how, after this episode, a ton of hate gets sent DT's way, when she really did squat in the episode and Spoon was at her side for everything she did do. Babs was responsible for the vast majority of it and didn't even really apologize for it. Yet everyone has to get their hate on for DT.
Not the first episode that has been a bit unfair to DT either. In Ponyville Confidential, Miss Cheerilee demotes DT, when the real person responsible for the fiasco is Miss Cheerilee, who utterly failed to do her job (which is, admittedly, necessary so we can have the episode, but regardless, she screwed the pooch, big time). And when she finally starts to do it, what does she do? She scapegoats DT, leaves another guilty party alone (the CMC), and promotes the last guilty party (Featherweight), who was spying all over town. In using DT as a scapegoat, she misses a prime opportunity to do some of that nurturing that's supposed to be her talent. And the CMC? They don't even get the karmic justice they deserved, the printing of their pictures,which really should have been part of their apology piece. Love that episode, but the punishment should have gone to far more than just one filly.
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"My headcanon about her is starting to develop along the lines that she bullied kids in Manehatten, until they started to get cutie marks and turned on her, took her from bully to bullied." - I was wondering myself if it were something like that. Maybe that she had a mean friend group but ended up excluded once cutie marks became a thing. After all, she slipped into being so cruel so quickly!
And yeah, I think people are just too used to "the bully" character being an acceptable target, and it's really sad to see this episode did NOTHING to change that, and played DT & SS the flattest we've ever seen them. HOW can they have managed a "bullies are people too" ep and apply NONE of it to their "bully" characters?
Due to one staff member telling people this wouldn't be just clichΓ© bully ep I unfortunately had some high hopes, such as:
1) Someone on an image board had thought the episode would be that Babs came to visit and from the start REALLY stood up for the CMC, picking on DT & SS. The CMC enjoy it at first but as it gets more and more vicious they pity DT & SS, and soon realise that they and Babs have become the bullies.
2) I had a slight hope that DT & SS would be the ones to put the breaks on Babs. They've never been that nasty before and clearly have standards, plus before now we've had several hints that they're not all bad (e.g. inviting Twist and the CMC to the cute-ceanera, SS clapping first at Granny Smith's story).
3) The CMC to "punish" Babs and then realise what they'd become. It could have been a very emotional scene and I'd braced myself for it, but no: They rescued her "just in time".
4) Learning something new about DT & SS.
Ponyville Confidential: I agree, Cheerilee dodged responsibility a little too easily. It's like she didn't even read the paper! They could have given some explanation. Still, at least DT's "karma" was minor and partially accident rather than being deliberately inflicted upon her...
I thought the CMC had had enough though. The episode could have given a better message about dealing with blackmail but the CMC had been shunned by the whole of their little village, including Scoot's hero (Rainbow Dash) and their families. That must have been very painful and they did seem genuinely sorry by that point.
CMC cuteness: I guess. 
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"HOW can they have managed a "bullies are people too" ep and apply NONE of it to their "bully" characters?"
Because Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon aren't people. They are plot devices. They pretty much only get screen time for plot reasons: to provide incentive for the CMC to do stupid things while generating sympathy for them or to receive their comeuppance. This differs from most other antagonists, who have at least a little bit of time spent on developing them and are partially the focus of the episodes they are in.
"I had a slight hope that DT & SS would be the ones to put the breaks on Babs."
Yeah, that's what I hoped for, but the odds were against it. It being a show for little kids, there was going to be redemption, which meant joining the CMC. Episodes aren't that long and CMC episodes already have three characters to focus on. When you toss in a fourth, a brand new one, that leaves very little time for anything else.
"They could have given some explanation. Still, at least DT's "karma" was minor and partially accident rather than being deliberately inflicted upon her..."
Well, I know why they didn't, time reasons and because doing so wouldn't really add anything to the episode. It just annoys me that Tiara loses a job she really wanted, that she was good at (even if she went too far), while Cheerilee let everyone else off. Especially as DT's blackmail threat was essentially to give the CMC a dose of karma.
"I thought the CMC had had enough though. The episode could have given a better message about dealing with blackmail but the CMC had been shunned by the whole of their little village, including Scoot's hero (Rainbow Dash) and their families. That must have been very painful and they did seem genuinely sorry by that point."
Maybe, but they exposed everyone else's embarrassing secrets. And all they say in the end is "sorry" because their actions finally have real consequences. And that was apparently good enough. The pictures existed, they should have Gabby Gummed themselves, to at least partially atone for their actions. They owed it to everyone to put themselves through what they did to others.
"I'm much more of a sucker for DT & SS cuteness but the CMC were sweet in this one."
Oh, I love me some DT and SS cuteness as well, especially DT. There's a reason I have the signature I do
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"Because Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon aren't people. They are plot devices."
At least they've had hints of being characters before (e.g. Silver Spoon being the first to clap Granny Smith's story).
And I suppose you're right, Ponyville Confidential did come down pretty hard on DT considering that she was just trying to do her job well and that she was hardly working alone. May well have been a better message about coping if the CMC had published their own embarrassing photos as way of apologising, showing that they don't consider themselves above anyone else and such... They really just lucked out there.
Ah well.
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