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ScarecrowsMainFan — Forces of Chaos vs. The Horde
Published: 2014-04-04 04:29:55 +0000 UTC; Views: 2660; Favourites: 18; Downloads: 9
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Forces of Chaos: A corruptive, mutating, malevolent force that seeps into the world and seeks to bring ruin and destruction upon all races. The nature of Chaos is evil, it mirrors the selfish and misguided doings and wills of the intelligent beings in the real world. The servants of Chaos are as varied as Chaos itself. There are cruel Chaos Dwarves and terrifying Beastmen, Hobgoblin slaves, Daemons that come in all shapes and sizes, and Warriors of Chaos. Each of these seeks to bring the world into never ending anarchy and misery. Whether this is done with the blade of an axe or by poisoning the hearts of the pure makes no difference. And all the while the Chaos Gods Tzeentch, Nurgle, Khorne and Slaanesh watch on, plotting the downfall of man and taking joy in their suffering.The Horde: A faction led by offworlders and composed of outsiders, The Horde are the long standing rivals of The Alliance faction. Led into a sort of golden era by the Warchief Thrall, the Horde consists of many races including: Orcs, The Blood Elves, The Forsaken, Goblins, The Huojin Pandarens, Ogres, Taurens, Taunka, Yaungol, and trolls. These races have a variety of skills and make up many tribes, but all rally under the banner of the Horde. Often viewed as evil monsters by their enemies, the Horde view themselves as simply trying to survive. Should anything try and threaten that survival, then the full might of the Horde and all it's forces will come crashing down on it, sheer brutality and powerful rending any obstacle asunder.
Now, these two armies are about to collide. The malevolent forces of Chaos will slam headlong into the rageing tribes of the Horde, and neither will give an inch as they do everything they can to win. Will the darkness of Chaos seep into and destroy the Horde from within? Or will the Horde stand firm and brutally crush them? These warriors will do whatever it takes, but in the end, only one side can triumph, and become...
THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR!
(Disclaimer: Just to be clear, these two combatants were created / are owned by people far more creative / wealthier then me. I have made this, not for profit, but in the hopes of encouraging spirited discussion among fans. Please support the combatants official series. Thank you, that is all).
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Comments: 59
Chaos always finds a way.
The Chaos Gods will Corrupt them from inside. Tzeentch Magic, Khorne trolls and Orc, Slaanesh Goblin and Elves, Nurgle Forsaken and maybe with tricks Tauren after that they would fight amongs themself
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The we will breake everyting else on you! You body! You family! You friends! Even your hown home will twist itself like the dark abyss of the warp till there is nothing left but madness and chaos!
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YOU WILL NEVER BREAK US ALL, CHAOS DOGS! WE PREVAIL AND WE SHALL NOT ALLOW YOUR FILTH INHABIT OUR WORLD!
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The momment we step on this ,,World", we will send you to your ancesters, just to see them get ripped appart by the demons of our masters. And when you have fallen, the four greate ones will take your so beloved home and the truth in it, children of azaroth and drainor.
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YOU CAN TELL YOUR GODS TO GO TO HELL! YOU WILL NEVER CLAIM AZEROTH NOR DRAENOR!!!
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Don't worry. We already come from there. And killing us in a realy twisted by mind and mortals doesn't finish us off. It will be funny, seeing how your own emotions create your enemys. And anger is a good source.
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ENOUGH TALK, CHAOS DOG! FOR THE HORDE!!!
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* 1 Min. later *
Chaos: Sooo... when do we fight?
Horde: When we have the second tank and two more healers.
Chaos: What about the DDs?
Horde: ...(Opens a portal to Ogrimma).
Undeath Rouge: FINALYYOU DICKSUCKINGRETARDWHAT TOOKYOUSOLONGLOSTYOURPOCKETHEALERORWHATNOWBUFFMEORIWIPETHE-(closses the portal).
Chaos: Ouh,thats nasty. Reminds me of someting.
Horde: And that would be?
Chaos
Khorne Berserk: YOUMENTALYDEFECTIVECOWARDWHATTOOKYOUSOLONGDONTTELLMEOHIHADTOMAKEMYFINGERNAILSBECAAAAAUUUUSENOWSTOPHIDINGBEHINDYOURMAGICANDFIGHTLIKEAMA-(Closses the portal).
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As long as they don't have to face a Bloodthirster.....or any of the Greater Daemons they could survive.
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Superior firepower (Skarbrand; Daemons of Chaos 7e) , magical weapons or attacks spammed (Thanqoul's Doom or Daemonns of Chaos 8e in one of the timeline sections, Teclis) , heroic champions (Gotrek and Felix) and the fickle winds of magic failing are all examples of how Greater Daemons could and would be dealt with. WOW is not lacking in any single option. Please familiarize yourself with the lore more before championing one side when you know little of the other.
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Warcraft has always been a pale imitation of Warhammer. Sure they retconned in some new shiny bits, but still an imitation. Heck back in Warcraft 2 the only thing that separated, Orcs from Orks was the Orcs and Demons (The Orcs even looked like Warhammer Orcs). Don't get me started on their pathetic attempt in adding in pseudo Cthulhu mythos. When the original Warcraft was first being made it was going to be a Warhammer game. Half-way though Games Workshop nixed the idea, so they changed names around but kept most of thematic appearance, and low and behold Warcraft.
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This is a sad, pathetic attempt of a rebuttal. The highly debated claim that WC has completely imitated WF- regardless of being true or not- has nothing to do with fighting ability and is a incredible cop out. Nor would the counter claim raised even by some WH fans that they in turn stole everything from pre-established fictions like LOTR, Dune, DnD, Starship Troopers ect. The fact that you are pulling back from W2 and not even acknowledging all the WOW upgrades shows how incredibly out of touch you are here with the faction's true capabilities.
We aren't looking for most original, we are looking for who would win in a fight.
Please try again, this time intelligently.
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Note the Survive. They could never win.
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Indeed, nothing in warcraft matches up to warhammer.
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I should really stop looking at X vs Y stuff when I'm too tired. There are things in Warcraft that trump Warhammer when you start to think about it.
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You two clearly have no idea what WOW has done to their lore in recent years, and I say that with nearly 90% certainty I have read more WF lore then you, including the Liber Chaotica, Tome of Corruption, Witch Hunter's guide ect (all sourcebooks).
Chaos and the Lizardmen are the only two WF factions I can see having a good chance of beating a WC faction. Conclave follows as a bizzare merging of many rivals together
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I don't follow Warcraft lore beyond "Now Eviler Villain X has appeared" and other major plot points. Neither am I a huge nerd of Warhammer Fantasy, so I guess me trying to judge Warhammer and Warcraft is a bit silly.
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Yea I am for both 
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Indeed. I prefer science fiction in general over fantasy.
Btw, all of my comments from last night I wrote when I was more or less sleep deprived, and I become like that when I'm a bit too tired for my own good. I apologize.
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The Forces of Chaos don't really seem like anything that The Horde hasn't dealt with before or would really have any problems dealing with. The Horde's experience with the forces of darkness and against numerically superior opponents is never to be scoffed at. The Horde employs highly experience warriors and magicians of all schools of magic. It's extremely versatile. Plus, they have the technological advantage as far as I know. The Forsaken use their hideous plague, the Blood Elves use insidiously powerful mana bombs, a single one capable of wiping out all life in a small town, and the Goblins make use of potent machinery, be it mechanical land-juggernauts or superior aerial fleets.
I wonder, what can the Forces of Chaos boast as far as technology, magics, and martial prowess? Are their warriors as experienced as the Horde's? Are their magics as varied and potent? Is their technology even remotely on the level of Goblin technology?
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Chaos warriors: Well they have some technologie that wouldn't be so good if it wouldn't be powerd by demons.Still not realy good.
Beastmen: Don't ask there tech sucks ass.
Chaos babarians: Same.
Chaos dwarfs: They are with the skaven the first Warhammer Fantasy fraction with industry and there tech outclasses the technologie of the horde by far, specific ly the Long-range atillery AND they got the Demon-In-Tech bonus.
Skaven: Like the chaos dwarfs but the chance of killing the crew itself is very high,specificly at warp-lightning cannons but the power of spliting mountains is worth the weight (but who cares in a skaven army for another skavenlive?)+ they are experts in biologican warfare and masters of genetic experements f.e. ratogers or hellpit abominations.
Demons: A bit of an odd one,demontech is more like manifested magic and so it is not anymore technologie but a demon can be bound to technologic stuff or the warppowers itself turns technologie into liveforms with sometings like there own will.
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Old comment I know, but from what I know about warhammer Fantasy (which isn't much tbh), but I think you're kinda underestimating the forces of Chaos.
For one, nobody is infallible to the temptations of chaos. Eventually, the horde would tear its self apart in a massive bloodbath on account of the crazed worshippers of chaos.
A plague isn't much compared to the kind of diseases Nurgle concocts on a daily basis (ex. Nurgle's Rot).
A mana bomb that can kill a small village? If the Skaven are included as part of chaos (I know there's some connection) they have the ability to pull their moon out of orbit.
And that's not to mention the literally limitless number of chaos Daemons that each chaos god has at its desposal. A mortal can go insane from simply looking at them.
For martial prowess, having Khorne, god of blood, slaughter, and war as part of your ranks lists them pretty high on the totem pole imo.
As for Magical abilities, Tzeentch, god of change, hope, progress, and other such emotions, is said to know every spell in existence. In particular, he likes mutating his enemies (as well as his followers) into a shapeless ball of flesh.
I'm not familiar with Warcraft lore, so I won't call it a stomp until I find out some of the finer points of the horde. But trust me when I say you're underestimating chaos.
Edit: ack! It appears somebody more knowlegable than I has already said all this. Please disregard my ramblings
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Before you say "ack Alliance fanboy!" Know that I do acknowledge where the Horde has a advantage over the Alliance, like its deadly versatile tactics, overall superior ground force, and more brutal leaders . Alliance meanwhile arguably has tech, definately has air force, navy, and probably has magic now thanks to the entire Kirin Tor joining their ranks. However in relevant to this battle the Alliance's moral, discipline, cohesion values are what is key, and what costs them against Chaos I think.
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Have no fear, I'm not rabid like many people you'll meet on the web. My mind is open and I am always happy to learn ^_^.
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*costs the Horde against Chaos
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I agree the Horde would win battles however I think its the moral question that screws them. In the novels and comics (and I presume some quests, not sure, I play Alliance) the Horde is shown to give into their basic urges far easier then the Alliance. Orcs and Trolls suffer from Bloodlust, Blood Elves from magic addiction, goblins from extreme greed, Forsakens use plagues which would bring them great affection from Nurgle the Plague god and the Forsaken queen Sylvannas is a massive schemer. You can't just beat Chaos on the military level; you have to beat them on the moral level and from what I can see each of Chaos Gods have a hold on a Horde race. Historically Chaos was said to be caused by the survivalist mentalities of the races of Warhammer and the Horde is very much a survivalist faction. Secondly there is the factor that every single conflict they have fought with the Alliance, and even those against Burning Legion or Scourge, has seen the Horde suffer a devastating betrayal, civil war or other form of internal turmoil. Their relative disunity is another trait of them, and none of this can be thrown aside against a faction that specializes in manipulating such traits. They could win 100% of the military battles against Chaos but lose the war.
Alliance meanwhile I think can pass the moral test. They don't have as great a history of extreme emotions or betrayal as the Horde does, is bound by ideals rather then survival, and 90% of the faction worships or at least follows a force heavily against Chaos both in WF and in WC ( the Light or Elune) .
As for pure military the Horde/Alliance likely both have the technological edge as though Chaos Dwarves have impressive equipment they don't have as good a air force or early tanks. I'd argue WF magic is overall more powerful then WC magic however there are many more WC magicians (given classes, but not gameplay mechanics like hitpoints/Resurrection ect, are cannon) and is more reliable as WF magic has a tendency to explode in the mage's face, killing them violently. However Chaos probably has the most magicians of a WF force and has the unique advantage of summoning long-lasting storms of magic, which amp their magical power up even further. If I remember correctly the Horde lore-wise has the most shamans, warlocks, shadow-priests of the magic users while Alliance has the most druids, mages (particularly now that the Kirin Tor joined them) and priests/paladins (thanks to their light worshipping ways, the Aldor- who according to the Visual Guide have joined the Alliance, and the Draenei altogether, as according to lore they use the Vindicator-Paladin- as a basic troop). Its hard to call who has the advantage under Storm of Magic conditions, as in addition to very powerful magic the WF magic user can bring in giant monsters or summon hordes of daemons to join in, but outside that I would say Horde would have magical edge.
In Numbers Chaos has it, with probably hundreds of millions of beastmen, millions of Men of Chaos, uncounted Daemons (though they have trouble sustaining themselves on the mortal realm) and probably a couple tens of thousands C. Dawi, backed by slave races. The highest figures I have seen thrown around have the Alliance losing 50k in Northrend which is quite a bit but obviously didn't cripple them nor reduced their armies by any noticeable faction. . So I would put Horde/Alliance armies in the tens of thousands easily and max in the low hundreds of thousands. Still they took losses and the Horde suffered the most in the recent war, and I fervently believe that neither Horde/Alliance populations combined van equal Chaos. Fortunately Scarecrow does representative battles in which there are even starting numbers with representative reinforcement rate usually numbering in the thousands (at current, the Horde has 2.5k to Chaos's 50k{mostly Beastmen, which are a fodder race if there ever is one} but that might change. Chaos I think has numbers advantage.
In terms of experience you have hordes of bestial beastmen with limited training but tons of ferocity, to very powerful warriors who literally spend hundreds of years killing in very powerful armor while trying to become a daemon. So to answer your question some are less experienced, some equal and a few far more.
I think its pretty even in battles, as though Chaos has numbers, daemons, and powerful magic, Horde can match it with more magic, tech and overall better quality. Its just the moral question I think screws the Horde. Now the Alliance on the other hand.....thats a question for another day.
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Interesting... I am an avid Horde player. In my experience, the Horde's moral standards are largely as you say. What is interesting though, is that Orcs, Trolls, and Tauren all value honor and, for the most part, adhere to it to the best of their capabilities. The exceptions are, of course, the Orcs that follow Garrosh's bellicose philosophy. The Blood Elves are a curious lot. As of the end of The Burning Crusade, the Sunwell was reignited with M'uru's spark, once again supplying the Blood Elves with magical energy, though it is light magic as opposed to arcane magic now (at least from what I can tell. Naaru are beings of light so it'd only make sense. I could very well be wrong). I can't really say what it would do for their magic addiction, but The Light is supposed to be a benevolent and purifying force in the Warcraft Universe. The Blood Elves seem to employ paladins as elites and standard soldiers. Also, since the Sunwell's re-ignition, the Blood Knights no longer seem to steal the power of The Light, but are granted its strength by the Sunwell (provided the above statement about the Sunwell switching from arcane to light magic is accurate). There are many among the Blood Elves that still cling to the faith of The Light. Blood Elves as a culture tend to be very pragmatic and survivalistic. As of Mists, they're also much more humble than they used to be. They hold onto some measure of honor, but not nearly as fervently as the more tribal races do. The Forsaken are back-stabbing pragmatists. Some are honorable, some are sadistic, and not one of them is to be trusted, as any Forsaken's loyalty lies with Sylvanas, who is a proud, manipulative schemer. She's amoral and power-hungry (more like ravenous). As long as she and her people live, and she's allowed to do whatever she wants, she's content. Then there's the Goblins. They have some sense of honor but their culture is one of excess. Their starting zone shows us that the value at least some form of loyalty and fellowship. They're not, however, predisposed to having a sense of honor like the Orcs, Trolls, and Tauren do. Huojin Pandaren are honorable and moral by nature and nurture. They heavily adhere to their morals, though the Huojin are more reckless than their Tushui counterparts. Ji (Huojin) and Aysa (Tushui) act with the same set of morals in mind, Ji is just more proactive (and a bit reckless too). The Huojin Philosophy values decisive action over patience. It is not a philosophy of unrestrained passion, however, and calls for strict discipline, just not to the same extent that Tushui does. Huojin and Tushui seem very different on paper, but they are extremely similar in practice, the key difference being that the former is less patient and the latter is patient to a fault. They work for the same goals. Trolls are actually extremely level-headed and in control of themselves. They adhere to honor as fervently as the Tauren do (Tauren are adhere to the principles of honor more than Orcs do), especially under Vol'jin, and they are very much united with their Tauren and Orcish bretheren despite Garrosh's persecution of them. They seek to do what is best for the Horde, which all members now (post Siege of Orgrimmar: the present), barring Sylvanas, see as a family.
I can't say that the Alliance has better or worse magic than the Horde. The Alliance is better in the arcane magics department but the Horde is better in the shamanistic magics department. They seem to balance each other out that way. Apples and Oranges as it were, though the Horde is far quicker to weaponize magic in destructive ways than the Alliance is (mana bombs).
The tech argument is odd. Goblin stuff seems to hold up better and produce more potent results than Gnomish stuff does. It's also far more volatile. Goblin fighter planes, in my experience, tend laugh Gnomish figher planes off the battlefield. Against Dwarven technology, however, its up in the air. Dwarves are better on the ground, and Goblins are better in the air. The Alliance seems to have more resources at its disposal, though, so it easily out-produces the Horde in the tank and machinery department (Though the Siege of Orgrimmar show-cased just how terrifying Goblin technology can be). Apples and Oranges again, it seems, but I'd say the Alliance gets the Technological edge for the sheer amount it can produce.
Back to the moral thing, though, so we don't end up side-tracking this with Horde/Alliance comparisons ;^_^.
Half of the Horde, I think, is safe, mainly the Pandaren, Elves, Trolls, and Tauren. The Orcs will probably end up splitting up, one side choosing to uphold honor and the other giving into bloodlust. The Forsaken would end up playing right into the Chaos Gods' hands, though they would inflict horrific damage upon the Forces of Chaos in the process. I imagine that the Goblins would ultimately side with the more honorable Horde members, though Gallywix is likely to betray the Horde.
I think that you're right in the end. The Horde isn't cohesive enough to hold out. Militarily speaking, it would inflict enormous damage on the Forces of Chaos, but it would split in two and would lack the numbers to adequately hold out without help from the Alliance. Now were Sylvanas a person of outstanding moral character, it would be different, but she's basically a female undead elf Hitler.
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Thank you for mentioning honor, I had forgotten about that. From reading Valkia the Bloody, in which the titular character becomes the daemon champion of Khorne, the followers of Chaos seek out the purest form of their obsession. For example a Slaaneshi servent seeks the purest sensation, whether it be horrifically torturing another person or even himself in order. Tzeentch followers have crazy and often self-defeating schemes everywhere and Nurgle is obsessed with plagues. Those for Khorne want blood to perpetually flow, but don’t care from where it flows. They will kill children, babies, old people, even their own allies in order to acquire Khorne more blood and skulls, something a honorable “normal” eager warrior , like those Valkia encounters, would be shocked by. Of course few start out fully corrupted and have to “slide” down there, but those orcs and trolls (my Bloodsworn comic and Tides of War novel both say they suffer from occasionally slide there) that stick closely to their “honor” should be safe. Those that slide and do monstrous things as Garrosh did, would be slowly marching towards Khorne.
Hmm a good point about the Blood Elves. Though even those of the Light can be corrupted (see Arthas, Archbishop Benedictus of WC, Engrimm Van Horstmann of WF) it’s much harder to do, and Blood Elves should be much safer than I thought . Nitpick but I always thought rangers and teams of archers were their standard troops , with Blood Knights and mages as elites.
Yea we both agree on the Forsaken. I’d like to think that some would be able to resist and throw it off but in general this faction has an obsession with Death and Plagues (nurgle’s purview) and schemes, which is Tzeentch’s game. As the Horstmann novel shows Tzeentch, if he wants to corrupt someone, is one of the two I’d think most capable of doing so, along with Slaanesh. The Goblins are going to be horribly tested by Slaanesh as riches beyond wildest dreams are offered to them but as Slaanesh cannot personally take the field with enough discipline and loyalty they should throw the attempt to subvert them….or portions of them would. I agree with you on the Huojin.
To be fair I think the Alliance would also suffer from some Chaos corruptions but it would be lesser, as you don’t see as many extremes as in the Horde. Though Tzeentch might claim all magic users as his own the WF setting shows us that if mages are well-regulated and disciplined enough, they can avoid his corruption. Not to mention WC uses an entirely different system then Winds of Magic, so Tzeentch’s hold would be less in the first place.
In regards to magic I was always under the impression there were more total druids among the Alliance then Horde if only slightly, as I remember like almost half of the Night Elf population (this knowledge was from WC3 days) is or was a druid. Plus druids seem to be more numerous than Tauren IMO, and are almost single-handily standing between the Horde and domination of Kalimdor. Draenei have aided very periodically and Worgen have only recently been incorporated but its Night Elves (along with animal friends) that contest lands from Dark Shore to Feralis . Tauren’s presence seems more limited, and the numerical equivalent among the Horde looks to be the Orcs for the Kalmidor side. However I concede this point is a bit convoluted and is the most debatable
I agree Shamans for the Horde. Shadow magic-priests were invented by a Forsaken according to the fifth WOW magazine and doesn’t seem to have yet become as popular among Alliance as Horde. Warlocks also have a greater history with Horde then Alliance.
However Blood knights and new Sunwalkers I don’t think are numerous enough to compete with the paladin traditions of humans and dwarves , much less the Draenei’s , whose very military backbone IS paladins. In comparison Blood Knights are an elite group. Too the established churches of the Light(including recent addition of the Aldor) and Elune, as well as the feats shown by them (particularly of Elune’s in the novel) suggest overall that the Alliance has an edge in holy magic.Then of course we both agreed on arcane.
So IMO
Alliance edge:
Druid (Natural) magic
Arcane
Light
Horde:
Elemental
Fel
Shadow
Heh from looking at that we can see a theme. The Horde’s edges are arguably the different types of magic most representing strength, power, and deviance from the norm. Alliance’s magic edges are more stable, healing, and utilitarian.
Hmm do you have a showing of goblin vs. Gnome planes? Been looking for one of those though I haven’t beaten the game yet (though I have read every single literature for WC universe , I am still 78 thanks to trying school). I mostly went with the tech edge because of tanks and aircraft, of which I think the Dwarves are superior. In addition no Alliance gunship has been shot down canonically, showing they are made of tough stuff, which basically every Horde gunship except Ogrim’s hammer has.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XMR7P…
Unfortunately, for I like the Horde more than Choas, I do agree. From reading the Chaos books fighting the Chaos forces will militarily be a draining prospect, if one thy can potentially win depending on numbers. However fighting a morale question on top of that….its what costs them in nearly every conflict to date against the Alliance, and unfortunately I think it might happen here. Though hopefully Vol’jin initiates some changes that turns the Horde into something better, more like a family.
Also you seem to know a lot about the Horde which I am happy to see. If you want, you have the time + fake FB account (or a real one if you are so bold) you can join this group. We like discussing vs. debates including Fantasy bouts, with the first battle being Alliance vs. Chaos. Your well informed opinions and knowledge of the Horde would be great to have, while I think I can provide the Alliance’s background (particularly when I fully beat the game) .
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I'm not nearly as well-versed in the novels as you are. My primary experiences with the Horde started with playing Warcraft II and reading its manual for lore back when I was a kid. It expanded to reading about the lore and watching a Let's Play of Warcraft 1, playing through Warcraft III, and questing in WoW. The only Warcraft novel I read was Lord of the Clans and I've never read any of the comics.
It's mainly in Outland with Kael's elves that I've seen Blood Knights used as commonplace soldiers. Netherstorm and a few dungeons come to mind, though it's been a long time since I've quested in those areas so I'm likely remembering it wrong. I do believe you're quite right about the Ranger Corps. being the proper Blood Elven defense force. Honestly and embarrassingly, I forgot that they existed. Good catch.
The Alliance certainly has more in the way of paladins. It is without question. Paladins have been integral to the Alliance since Warcraft II. They've only VASTLY increased in number among the Alliance since then.
It was in the Goblin Starting questline on the Lost Isles that the Goblins put the Gnomes to shame in the air. Here is a video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwgQ68…
The tech edge definitely rests with the Alliance, though. Goblin stuff is devastating, like in the Siege of Orgrimmar, but it's never really been tested against the Alliance's siege tanks, and those things, I think, would obliterate most Goblin machines, barring the SoO ones. Horde airships do have a tendency to get shot down. The only Alliance airship that I know has been downed (due to Horde prisoners escaping on it and attacking the crew) was on the Wandering Isle. I don't know just how many Horde Airships have been shot down but I do know that the one in Mists of Pandaria took out an Alliance Battleship (or frigate, not sure) and got taken out for its troubles. The Alliance is capable of producing much more technology due to its higher numbers and greater resources. Gnome tech tends to be very safe but underwhelming, Goblin tech tends to be unstable and overwhelming, and Dwarven tech tends to be stable, practical, and sufficiently potent. Dwarves easily take the edge.
I think we're actually pretty well in agreement on all of these points. The Horde can't fight a war if it gets split in half, which it will inevitably will be if it confronts the Forces of Chaos. They'll certainly inflict a devastating number of losses on the Forces of Chaos but they won't last because Sylvanas, many Orcs, and many Goblins will fall prey to the Chaos Gods. The more level-headed and honorable among the Horde will stay true to their values but they'll be so vastly outnumbered that they'll lose through the attrition brought about by war and having to fight against former allies. They would need the Alliance's help to win, and both factions would end up suffering immensely because of Sylavanas's defection.
I'm not a big Facebooker but perhaps I could give it a shot. If you have a group dedicated to it here on DA I'd be more than happy to join.
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Well to be fair most of the literature takes a Alliance centric perspective, though lately more Horde centric stuff is emerging. I would recommend The Shattering, Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects, Tides of War and Voljin: Shadows of the Horde for such novels, two of which deal nearly completely with a Horde leader. All the short stories save one, the excellent Blood of the Highborne (about the Blood Knights) are on the WOW website. Blood of the Highborne is only available on kindle however it only costs 5 dollars so I recommend a buy, as it a large 72 pages of just High/Blood Elves.
Hmm that is a beta, could material have changed at all since? If not I accept that Gnomes would lose to Goblins in air until I see some evidence of a opposite Alliance quest, which hopefully occurs in Pandaria.
It is good to see we have been reaching a lot of agreements! I would like to note that a second Alliance gunship was also taken down by being boarded and hijacked by Twilight Cults, used to take out a Horde gunship, and then sent spiraling down to the Earth by the remnants of the original Alliance crew. So they have lost two so far but never to enemy fire, never has one been blown out of the sky.
Hmm what are your thoughts on the Alliance's ability to beat Chaos alone over a campaign? Assuming equal starting numbers but population proportionate reinforcements (so Chaos gets more) and all heroes present (every faction leader, major general of note ect along with all Chaos heroes) . From what I can tell Alliance would have some advantages over the Horde in this situation like cohesion/anti-corruption and light magic users (lorewise light magic users do more damage to daemons in both WC and WF then any other type of magic) however lack brutal baseline troops and tactical flexibility.
If you are ever interested in some reading, here is the only free Chaos book I could find on Scribd. It only really has some Chaos Dwarf units in it along with a few Chaos Warrior units, so it is missing most of the faction capabilities, but you can see one of the most famous chaos campaigns in it as well as the horrific C. Dawi artillery.
www.scribd.com/doc/207274685/9…
Unfortunately we don't, though many Fbers have DA accounts and the author of this picture/thread (as well as the others) is rather unofficially the main match vetter for it. Though perhaps a DA subsidary could be established one day, the reason FB is generally preferred is mainly because of Doc length, as DA's are kind of short and we would end creating multiple docs to illustrate one bio here. Other reasons is because many members are spend a lot of time on FB anyway so ease of access and the fact it originally started as a FB group. Some examples of the profiles we created for Sci-Fi (we only just moved to Fantasy along with Sci-fi) include
www.scribd.com/doc/173471192/E…
www.scribd.com/doc/160750134/C…
planetarybattles.blogspot.com/…
planetarybattles.blogspot.com/…
If you can join that would be great, as you seem like a person who gives thoughtful, non-biased opinions on your interests.
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Interesting. I hadn't realized that the Alliance had been getting so much love in the literature department.
Actually, the mission hasn't changed much, if at all. I recently did that line with a Goblin Shaman. 1 Goblin plane vs. all those Gnome planes. If you don't do that quest, you can't get off the Lost Isles and participate in the rest of the game.
That's what I get for playing Horde. I don't really get to see just what happens to the Alliance outside of major plot points and lore videos on Youtube.
I actually took a look at the "Alliance vs. Forces of Chaos" matchup on here and I saw what you wrote. I ended up learning quite a bit and you didn't really bring up any points that I had any sort of disagreement with. I doubt that the Alliance's lack of flexibility would really hurt them all that much as they have more than enough numbers to make up for it. Their magical affinities would do fine against Chaos and they're more united. The Alliance really won't fragment like the Horde would while fighting The Forces of Chaos. I think on a purely military level, the Horde would obliterate Chaos but things are never that skin-deep. The Alliance would definitely win with its cohesion, lack of agenda, and strong morals. They don't really pack any WMDs like the Horde as far as I know, so I'd imagine that the initial conflicts would take a heavier toll on them, but I have little reason to doubt that they'd come out as the victor over Chaos.
I shall have to look into getting a new facebook account then. I'm honored that you'd like to have me join.
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Sorry about lack of reply have been very busy with finals and projects. If this is too short I apologize.
Oh yea. Night Elves alone probably have 5 books almost solely about them.
Hmm then you are correct then, barring a incident where the gnomes prove superior. So far, and I am at Vash'j, I haven't seen that happen.
Well ditto to me too for not playing Horde, which I am going to try to do this summer.
Actually I haven't fully come down on the Alliance's side yet. The number advantage Chaos has is great, its heroes are powerful, and Daemons I think might be more formidable then their BL equivalents. HOwever I don't think they will have too much trouble with Chaos corruption, for reasons we discussed. I look forward to that battle in the randomly chosen battleground of AOT land when it premeirs in that group!
Indeed we would be honored if you want! That guy you are debating with on the other thread, Skaven vs. Horde, is also in it! If it helps you in your debate with him know that he agreed with me the Alliance would beat the Skaven quite handily even when assuming the Skaven outnumbered them by 15-25-1.
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Life is what happens while your making plans, as someone told me, so there's no need to apologize for not replying to me right away (not there was ever a need to apologize to begin with).
Nelves are quite popular, though five books is rather astonishing.
Are you saying that there was an incident where the gnomes handed the goblins their green behinds on a platter? I'm a bit confused by your wording there. All I know is that there was the Quest in Lost Isles where the Goblins handily defeated the Gnomes. Shredders and Gnomebot Pounders seem to go head-to-head depending on the kind of Shredder being used.
Interesting. What is this AOT land of which you speak?
It does help. It gives me quite a bit of hope that the Horde could triumph.
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Well yea I would like to see that. I mean in the Gnomish quests in Stonetalon you decimate the nearby Shredder force with a modified pounder, but I think there was a goblin quest that had you do the reverse. So I want to see if there is a Gnomish quest where your planes destroy goblin ones, or if the Goblins truly have the gnomes in a headlock there.
moe.animecharactersdatabase.co…
shingekinokyojin.wikia.com/wik…
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJaUvV…
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqjyBx…
Its a very popular anime nowadays whose premise follows the last survivors of the last walled city of humanity as they struggle against giant titans constantly trying to consume them.
Indeed I think the argument certainly could be made that they could.
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You're right. The Horde got a goblin equivalent to use against the Gnomebot Pounders. I'd also be interested to see if the Gnomes can beat the Goblins in the air.
I should have known >_<. Now I feel dumb. It's not entirely my style of show but I would like to see it through to some extent.
I'm gathering my information and pulling out all the stops here. If the Horde and the Alliance can stalemate one another, and the Alliance can beat Skaven, I'm confident that the Horde can do the same.
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Indeed. My quest to beat Alliance WOW is soon going to come to a end! Level 83 almost finished with Vash'j. Once I get 90 ill run through all the lesser known locations.
Ehh to be fair I too find anime's tendency to overdramatize emotions somewhat offputtting though I do enjoy the overall storyline and think it would be a great battlefield. Giant titan monsters everywhere and a human population that is fearful and almost in the midst of a civil war.
Good! Though know sometimes its because a specific advantage one side has over another. For example the Alliance's bigger numbers of holy units can help more against daemons, while Horde's WMD might help more against a faction that can stalemate them on the ground. Still I look forward to your argument.
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I very recently posted it.
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I see that, though I think you are wrong regarding Vyrkul. From my research they can only ressurect humans as Forsaken- which is why the 7th Legion deployed non-humans against them and Humans turned to the Worgen virus. Though any necromancers they have could still raise skelatons to fight.
In addition the SoO Ogrimmar post-speech of the Alliance and from what I have read regarding the Quest chain I think the Alliance actually beat the Horde out of Gilneas for a while and then it returned to being contested. What Sylvannas did at the end of the Silverpine quest-chain was more so blackmail Darius Crowley out lest her daughter be made Forsaken.
Other then that looks good!
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It is still possible, even if the Val'kyr cannot make Skaven into Forsaken, to convert Skaven into Horde troops. All that need be done is the harvesting of Skaven parts to make Abominations with. Simply animate the Abomination and you're good to go. The Horde has used this strategy before in the Barrens, and it has been used in general by the Scourge and Forsaken for the production of Abominations. The same can be done for any dead Horde members. Simply make an Abomination with their parts and you have another battle-ready soldier.
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Sylvanus did offer to raise Lor'themar's dead as Forsaken during the opening phases of SoO. That's curious thing to do for someone who can supposedly only raise humans. But I think you are right and I made a grievous oversight.
The battle for Gilneas ended up as a Battleground, as it was heavily contested. Sylvanus used Crowley to force the surrender during the final stages of her campaign against Gilneas. After that, it was the BG, and then, I believe you are right about the final fate of Gilneas: being returned to Alliance hands.
The Horde could think of something, I suppose, to deal with the lack of numbers. There are plenty of alchemists among the Goblins so there is room to work on something there, not to mention the acid-sweating hobgoblins being a threat along with what's left of the Apothecaries that didn't ally with Varimathras.
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Sorry about delay I am still working hard on this . I got out the battleground if you want to see
allianceandchaos.blogspot.com/…
Hmm I might have to look this up then. I wonder if Blizzard addressed it in any of their Q and As. My gut says its only humans, but I am not 100% sure. Your Abomination point is apt.
Thanks for that! I was debating with someone on another forum who claimed it was a total Slyvannas victory and was surprised by that. On a off topic note what are your feelings towards Warlords of Draenor?
Yea true though I think, if that man were to respond, he'd point out one of the clans that can also increase their numbers through breeding of crazy monsters or something. Clan Moulder I think.
I ultimately agree with you that Horde should win, barring the most obscene number discrepancies. Even then Skaven have a habit of screwing themselves through their schemes. Like a event in a recent novel that I read where the Skaven attempted to summon a powerful Verminlord to a fight against the dwarves The Grey seer messed the spell up and managed to summon the daemon Skarbrand, a daemon of Khorne who has a pathological hatred of magic users and cowards (for the latter; all Skaven, and particularly in the face of the massive Bloodthirster) . This Bloodthirster then decimated most of their army, alojng with a portion of the dwarves.
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Neat. 'Twas well worth the wait, I say. I'd say your gut's right. Blizz is sometimes inconsistent with its lore. Remember the red-shirt guy having to correct them on dwarf lore?
No problem ^_^. Sylvanas didn't take Gilneas so easily, as the other fellow you debated apparently claims. I did that quest-line and it was a HARD-fought victory for the Horde that had to be done through cunning manipulation and underhanded tactics. Sylvanas lost many, many soldiers to the worgen and the Seventh Legion.
I'm interested to see what happens in Warlords. I love the Horde, so the thought of us going in and beating down another one after the Horde already took a beating in Mists isn't one that sits well with me. I do think it will be grand, though, and I'm hoping that, after the final bosses are felled, the Horde will be getting all of the Iron Horde members that are left over. Hopefully the Alliance will get the large number of Draenei. I'm REALLY hoping they fix the female Draenei's back problems. As it stands, their current model looks like somebody wrapped them around a rolling pin.
Interesting point about clan Moulder. Seems like, at worst, the Skaven would stalemate the Horde, and, at best, The Horde would beat them.
Those poor Skaven do tend to shoot themselves in the feet. I think the other fellow I was debating with argued under the assumption that they would all stand united against the Horde, and I argued from the point that, even if they were all united, the Horde would still beat them, which seems to be what we're agreeing on. Ouch. Reminds me of the questline in the Burning Steppes where Horde and Alliance can sabotage the Blackrock Orcs. One of their mightier warlocks summons a Pit Lord ( www.wowwiki.com/Pit_Lord ) and your character, by that point, has replaced the item he needed to control the Pit Lord with with a glass orb. It wreaked havoc on his men until they finally put it down. I was surprised that they were able to down it so quickly with much fewer casualties than I thought there'd be but I guess Blackrock Orcs don't mess around.
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Chaos forces are just too badass. They've destroyed countless cities and nearly laid waist to the Empire itself through sheer might. Especially when they have Chaos Dwarves so say hello to talking cannons that shoot souls that are on fire.
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Chaos because Chaos=burning legion! and it require alliance of Human and Horde to will Burning Legion. So yeah Chaos.
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