HOME | DD

Description

Exclusive Interview: The Free State of Sabha’s Martin Geoff on Sabha and Human-Trafficking

Date: February 20th, 2025

Author: The Mediterranean

(The Mediterranean) - The Free State of Sabha has garnered notoriety over its lucrative human-trafficking schemes and the phenomenon of attracting western emigres to the war-torn country of Libya. Charlotte McLamb received the rare opportunity to speak with its leader - Martin Geoff, the man who's responsible for the formation of the state and its many atrocities and illicit activities.

The following transcript was recorded during a livestream session between her and the Chief Representative at The Mediterranean headquarters in Valetta, Malta. Following subject preside over the matters on human-trafficking and their various ventures over the region of Fezzan.

<--- Transcript --->

Charlotte: Good evening, everyone. I'm Charlotte McLamb, and we're streaming live over our headquarters in Malta. I'm sorry if the whole scene feels a bit cluttered. Some of our folks are using the studio, so we have to rush our interview here. Speaking of which, we're here live with a very special guest. Joining me is one of Libya's most "eccentric" and "reputable" figures. Mr. Geoff, how are you today? [00:21]

Martin: Uh, it's fine, I guess. Thanks for asking. [00:25]

Charlotte: Before we start, do you like to introduce yourself here? I imagine some people here don’t actually know who you are. [00:33]

Martin: Ok, sure. Uh, hello everyone! My name's Martin Geoff. As she said before, I'm the “leader” of the Free State of Sabha, but in all honesty, I’m basically what my friends would call the Chief Representative. Uhm, my job is to represent the Board and propose projects that we have in mind. I'm also responsible for keeping the sense of business as healthy and competitive as possible, so you could say I'm sort of the-- [00:56]

Charlotte: I’m sorry, Martin. We have to keep it short, unfortunately. We don't want to keep this conversation too long. [01:02]

Martin: That's cool. [01:03]

Charlotte: Anyway, let's start with something simple from our chat here. Ok, so MuhammadIbnSiddiq72 here says, "Hello, Mr. Geoff. How are you doing today?". [01:15]

Martin: Thanks, Muhammad. Uhm, everything's fine in our little town here. Business is running as usual, with the occasional bumps from the south. It's good, in all honesty; one of our best days project-wise. [01:26]

Charlotte: Glad to hear that. Anyway, I wanted to ask the same question, but it seems like he thought it out first. However, you said that this is one of your best days and project-wise. What do you mean by that? Is the state facing some crisis, or do you think it's the opposite? The chief spokesperson from the Libyan National Army said, and I quote, that "the foreign system in Sabha will face retribution on the hands of our people.", so I thought that you might want to address that too. [01:56]

Martin: Well, some folks in chat may know that we announced the Emerald Palace project back in 2022, right? We didn't have enough engineers and architects to jumpstart it, so we have to delay the whole ordeal until a year later. After the whole construction was over, it ended up being the largest building in the city, believe it or not. We cleared out the old blocks since none of the locals are living there, so it gives us a lot of space to work with. It's pretty much a great testament to our project if I say so myself. [02:22]

Charlotte: I see, and where do you get these materials exactly? [02:27]

Martin: Kind of a nosey question, but if you really do wanna know, we got our marble and granite from the south and eastern areas. I don't wanna say more since it's pretty confidential. We have an auditorium made of this expensive stuff, and we used it to talk with the local tribes the last time I remembered. [02:39]

Charlotte: I see. [02:41]

Martin: And as for what Abdul Al-Saleh has to say? Well, I don't really care. I'm not the one who set the country on fire in the first place. If they want us out, they better show the people something better than spitting rhetoric. [02:53]

Charlotte: And you think you fared better than the LNA? [02:57]

Martin: Of course. After what they did to Tripoli, many flocked to us when we set up shop. We let them settle in Al-Mahdia to build back what they lost, and a couple of years later, it’s one of the most prosperous districts in the city. We're not the LNA; we don't screw over our people by pushing heavy taxes and threatening them with a barrel to their heads. It's pretty important to let them do what they want as long as they contribute to the economy here. [03:24]

Charlotte: I see. Well, we have another from the papers here. I thought you might be interested in the question at hand? [03:30]

Martin: Shoot. [03:30]

Charlotte: You made a statement back in 2023 about digging up gold south of Sabha, and it's been two years since then. Can you give us a general update on the whole matter? [03:39]

Martin: Yeah, I tweeted about this before I got banned. For those who don't know, water has always been a problem for us. We can't fix some of the infrastructures since we don't have the spare parts, so we pretty much have to drill for wells instead. We didn't find much, but some of our guys over the south did tap a chunk of gold during the drilling. That's when the board decided to excavate the whole place since we could make good money out of it. [04:07]

Charlotte: That’s rather interesting, to be honest. [04:09]

Martin: Libya is sitting on a gold mine, at least metaphorically. There’s so much potential under there with the minerals and all. I just took the opportunity to mine it first. [04:17]

Charlotte: I see, and what are you going to do with the gold, exactly? [04:23]

Martin: Some on the board said we should smelt them and... actually, I don't know how to answer that without revealing much. Sorry. [04:32]

Charlotte: Ok. So, here's something a bit mundane: "How do your people maintain the roads?". This is a question one of my colleagues wants me to ask because he wrote an article on how abysmal the roads over the south are, and he was surprised when the Free State managed to fix it, with little time and resources. So can you offer us some insight into the whole endeavor? [04:54]

Martin: Yeah, sure. Uhm, some of the roads here are pretty simple, so it's not hard for us to fix them. I don't have much insight on the specifics since I usually leave that to Obediah, our Councilor of Infrastructure. But since we obviously have to maintain them to keep the trade flowing from city to city and-- [05:25]

Charlotte: And your men do this alone or-- [05:28]

Martin: We work with the local engineers and foreman that used to work for Haftar's regime. Sometimes, we ask them to look for some cracks and stuff so we could patch them up as quickly as we can. For the most part, it's mostly sand covering the roads, so it's pretty easy to blow it off. [05:44]

Charlotte: The south is rather huge, surely you have more than just the locals that would-- [05:49]

Martin: Uhm, we do have others doing the rest of the work, but… Yeah, I don’t really want to talk about those people either. [05:56]

Charlotte: Why so? [05:49]

Martin: Eh, I don’t want to say much, to be honest. [05:53]

Charlotte: I see. If that’s the case, let’s move on then. [05:56]

Martin: Good. [05:57]

Charlotte: Ok, here's an interesting one: “How did people from Europe and the U.S. reach Sabha?”. Now we have our own findings in the Mediterranean, but I remember you saying that our coverage is pretty laughable. Since you think that we’re wrong, I thought that you could explain it yourself. [06:14]

Martin: I mean, most of us have to cross through Africa. The travel is relatively cheap, and the caravans over the Sahels make it easier to reach here. That's all I could say, really. [06:23]

Charlotte: Surely there has to be more than that? You could at least-- [06:25]

Martin: Look, we don't set up a yellow brick road just so Dorothy could reach the Emerald. If they spend a little of their time on a map, then they'll probably know where it is, right? Like I assume that these people are smart enough to make it here alive, so no biggie for us. [06:51]

Charlotte: I see. Uhm… Well, here's another one that’s kinda related to our last question, if you don't mind? [06:59]

Martin: Yeah, sure. [07:00]

Charlotte: There’s been a lot of Americans migrating to Libya since 2021, the same year when you set up this project. I wrote an estimate where it numbers around 7,000-- [07:05]

Martin: --35,000. [07:07]

Charlotte: 35,000? [07:09]

Martin: Yeah. [07:10]

Charlotte: As in the total numbers across the Free State. [07:15]

Martin: At least that's what our census has to say. Like we could've accepted more since we have over 100,000 requests from last year, but we only accept people with applicable skills. Most of us here are craftsmen, agriculturists, civil engineers, and even scientists. We don't want the project to become a nanny state and take care of the burden that comes with it, y'know. [07:29]

Charlotte: And they never faced any problems since they moved. [07:34]

Martin: Some of them are a little homesick, so we tried our best to make the city as familiar as possible. Almost all of them settled around the Al-Manshia district because it was relatively empty. Few of them brought their entire family here, believe it or not. [07:49]

Charlotte: So they don't face any problems with locals at all? [07:52]

Martin: Nope, it's pretty negligible. [07:55]

Charlotte: Negligible as in? [07:57]

Martin: Negligible as in there's not much conflict between us and them. So far, we're pretty cool with local tribes. In fact, they love how much we’ve done for them here. [08:07]

Charlotte: That's a rather condescending statement, don't you think? [08:11]

Martin: I'm just stating the facts here. [08:14]

Charlotte: I mean back in 2022, you said the Libyan are aimless and incapable of building civili-- [08:19]

Martin: I don't remember saying that. [08:21]

Charlotte: Well, I'm basing it on an archived tweet you made. So I was surprised that you're-- [08:26]

Martin: Look, I didn't say anything like that. And even if I did, I don't think it matters because we're still on good terms anyway. They're pretty grateful for what we've done, so if you're wondering whether I'm racist or not, go ask them! [08:39]

Charlotte: I see. Anyway, before we head to our final talking-point, there's another question from our chat here. PinkPeaches says, "I know that you have some sort of a military considering you're in the middle of a war-torn country, but do they operate freely, or are there's like a system they have to follow through?". [08:57]

Martin: Thank you, PinkPeaches. That's a really good question, actually. No, they don't operate freely. Otherwise, they'll be no different to the warlords up north. I'm basically their equivalent to a Commander-in-chief; that's one of the main responsibilities I have to deal with as Chief Representative. Although I leave details of security to one of my friends, Ljubomir. [09:15]

Charlotte: Wait, an army? I thought the Free State is an anarcho-capital-- [09:18]

Martin: We're libertarians, not ancaps. You could say we're pretty minarchist on the whole endeavor. Other than some basic functions, our government is pretty limited to protecting our rights and lands. Besides, we don’t force anyone into the fold. You can either volunteer to the Core Army or whatever security force our guys formed since 2021. [09:37]

Charlotte: The Core Army? [09:39]

Martin: It’s like our official defense force. Some people call them mercenaries, but that’s such a strong connotation. To me, a hired gun is a better word for them. It doesn’t mean there are no volunteers into the mix, though. In fact, their numbers are growing fast so… yeah. [09:57]

Charlotte: I see. Is that all you have to say? [10:01]

Martin: Yeah, that's pretty much it. Thanks for the question, uhh... PinkPeaches. That was a good one. [10:07]

Charlotte: Ok, on to the last question. This one is going to be lengthy, so I hope you don't mind. [10:12]

Martin: Yeah, sure. [10:13]

Charlotte: Back in 2022, one of my colleagues, Susan Maccaferry, wrote a piece about the escalation of the refugee crisis in Libya. She explained how the refugee smuggling scheme has gone worse ever since the breakout of the civil war. [10:25]

Martin: Ok, but what it has to do with me exactly? [10:28]

Charlotte: There's an interesting read where she wrote about Sabha being the most prominent smuggling hub in the country. In fact, human-trafficking has exploded ever since 2021, the exact years when you jump-started the Free State. There's a lot of evidence and testimonies that you’re partially responsi-- [10:42]

Martin: What evidence? [10:43]

Charlotte: Excuse me? [10:42]

Martin: Like I said, what "evidence"? Didn't you save you have-- [10:46]

Charlotte: Let's make this quick since you sounds rather irritated with what I have to say here: How do you feel about being partially responsible for the further escalation of human-trafficking and many humanitarian crises in Libya, especially with the plethora of concrete evidence provided against you? [11:03]

Martin: Uh... nothing. [11:13]

Charlotte: Nothing?! [11:14]

Martin: Yeah. [11:17]

Charlotte: Can you explain to us why you're-- [11:21]

Martin: I feel nothing is because I didn’t do anything wrong in the first place. How can I feel anything when you're accusing me of something that I didn't do? It's like accusing someone of a horrible crime they didn't make. [11:32]

Charlotte: You said it yourself back in 2023, live on Twitter before you got banned and a warrant of arrest from both FBI and ICC. I quote: "The best thing about having refugees in your home is them doing the housework for free, lol." Not only did you make it explicit, but you also inadvertently showcase shots of them scrubbing the floor. One of these people who escaped, Bashir Tofa, who we interviewed back in the back on January 15th, said he's one of many that you forced into labor and cramping people in auctions. More than that, he stated that you-- [12:04]

Martin: Look, you don’t need to get all emotional on this one, alright? We have-- we do encourage refugees to work in some places you might consider to be “horrible”, that's kinda true. But I also like to add that they don't mind the whole thing. In fact, they kinda love what we've done for them. [12:19]

Charlotte: So you do admit of forcing these people into labour?! [12:23]

Martin: I mean, Uhm... Look, it's like working on a better version of Amazon, right? Sure, they get a little bit of crap from us and you have to work for a day or two, but at least we treat them better. Instead of getting some crappy wage and health insurance that they'll never get to use, we give them free housing, good clothing, and real food. These people used to suffer in whatever third-world countries they used to squat in, now they're living in luxury. [12:47]

Charlotte: And you don't find this immoral at all?! You think making them surfer under literal slavery is better than-- [12:54]

Martin: I think it's the exact opposite: I think it's pretty immoral to let them pass north. I could've left them to die to whatever torpedoes Europe has to offer or rot in detention camps they're gonna end up in. But, as a man of conscience, I let them stay here. Y'know, a better one where they don't starve. [13:09]

Charlotte: So let me make this absolutely clear: You actually believe that holding them in shackles and continuing auctioning these people is “better” than helping them to-- [13:17]

Martin: I am helping them. Like I said, I could let them die in either way, but I let them live here. It’s weird because you’re the one who wrote how Europe keeps killing refugees instead of saving them, but you think what I’m doing here is wrong? To be honest, you should be thankful for what I’ve-- [13:33]

Charlotte: I’m sorry, but what you’ve just said here is complete and absolute bull. I never met anyone willing to commit to such a level of mental gymnastics to justify a horrific crime as much as you. [13:47]

Martin: Ok, that’s your opinion, and I respect that, I do. But the difference between yours and mine is that I based it on objective facts. You’re basing it on subjectives or whatever “evidence” you have against me. Worst of all, you think-- [14:01]

Charlotte: I have enough of this. It was wrong for me to bring you here in the first place. [14:06]

Martin: See, that’s what you guys always do. I try to be as reasonable as possible and you-- [14:13]

Charlotte: Goodbye, Mr. Geoff. [14:15]

<--- End Transcript --->

Description

Exclusive Interview: The Free State of Sabha’s Martin Geoff on Sabha and Human-Trafficking

Date: February 20th, 2025

Author: The Mediterranean

(The Mediterranean) - The Free State of Sabha has garnered notoriety over its lucrative human-trafficking schemes and the phenomenon of attracting western emigres to the war-torn country of Libya. Charlotte McLamb received the rare opportunity to speak with its leader - Martin Geoff, the man who's responsible for the formation of the state and its many atrocities and illicit activities.

The following transcript was recorded during a livestream session between her and the Chief Representative at The Mediterranean headquarters in Valetta, Malta. Following subject preside over the matters on human-trafficking and their various ventures over the region of Fezzan.

<--- Transcript --->

Charlotte: Good evening, everyone. I'm Charlotte McLamb, and we're streaming live over our headquarters in Malta. I'm sorry if the whole scene feels a bit cluttered. Some of our folks are using the studio, so we have to rush our interview here. Speaking of which, we're here live with a very special guest. Joining me is one of Libya's most "eccentric" and "reputable" figures. Mr. Geoff, how are you today? [00:21]

Martin: Uh, it's fine, I guess. Thanks for asking. [00:25]

Charlotte: Before we start, do you like to introduce yourself here? I imagine some people here don’t actually know who you are. [00:33]

Martin: Ok, sure. Uh, hello everyone! My name's Martin Geoff. As she said before, I'm the “leader” of the Free State of Sabha, but in all honesty, I’m basically what my friends would call the Chief Representative. Uhm, my job is to represent the Board and propose projects that we have in mind. I'm also responsible for keeping the sense of business as healthy and competitive as possible, so you could say I'm sort of the-- [00:56]

Charlotte: I’m sorry, Martin. We have to keep it short, unfortunately. We don't want to keep this conversation too long. [01:02]

Martin: That's cool. [01:03]

Charlotte: Anyway, let's start with something simple from our chat here. Ok, so MuhammadIbnSiddiq72 here says, "Hello, Mr. Geoff. How are you doing today?". [01:15]

Martin: Thanks, Muhammad. Uhm, everything's fine in our little town here. Business is running as usual, with the occasional bumps from the south. It's good, in all honesty; one of our best days project-wise. [01:26]

Charlotte: Glad to hear that. Anyway, I wanted to ask the same question, but it seems like he thought it out first. However, you said that this is one of your best days and project-wise. What do you mean by that? Is the state facing some crisis, or do you think it's the opposite? The chief spokesperson from the Libyan National Army said, and I quote, that "the foreign system in Sabha will face retribution on the hands of our people.", so I thought that you might want to address that too. [01:56]

Martin: Well, some folks in chat may know that we announced the Emerald Palace project back in 2022, right? We didn't have enough engineers and architects to jumpstart it, so we have to delay the whole ordeal until a year later. After the whole construction was over, it ended up being the largest building in the city, believe it or not. We cleared out the old blocks since none of the locals are living there, so it gives us a lot of space to work with. It's pretty much a great testament to our project if I say so myself. [02:22]

Charlotte: I see, and where do you get these materials exactly? [02:27]

Martin: Kind of a nosey question, but if you really do wanna know, we got our marble and granite from the south and eastern areas. I don't wanna say more since it's pretty confidential. We have an auditorium made of this expensive stuff, and we used it to talk with the local tribes the last time I remembered. [02:39]

Charlotte: I see. [02:41]

Martin: And as for what Abdul Al-Saleh has to say? Well, I don't really care. I'm not the one who set the country on fire in the first place. If they want us out, they better show the people something better than spitting rhetoric. [02:53]

Charlotte: And you think you fared better than the LNA? [02:57]

Martin: Of course. After what they did to Tripoli, many flocked to us when we set up shop. We let them settle in Al-Mahdia to build back what they lost, and a couple of years later, it’s one of the most prosperous districts in the city. We're not the LNA; we don't screw over our people by pushing heavy taxes and threatening them with a barrel to their heads. It's pretty important to let them do what they want as long as they contribute to the economy here. [03:24]

Charlotte: I see. Well, we have another from the papers here. I thought you might be interested in the question at hand? [03:30]

Martin: Shoot. [03:30]

Charlotte: You made a statement back in 2023 about digging up gold south of Sabha, and it's been two years since then. Can you give us a general update on the whole matter? [03:39]

Martin: Yeah, I tweeted about this before I got banned. For those who don't know, water has always been a problem for us. We can't fix some of the infrastructures since we don't have the spare parts, so we pretty much have to drill for wells instead. We didn't find much, but some of our guys over the south did tap a chunk of gold during the drilling. That's when the board decided to excavate the whole place since we could make good money out of it. [04:07]

Charlotte: That’s rather interesting, to be honest. [04:09]

Martin: Libya is sitting on a gold mine, at least metaphorically. There’s so much potential under there with the minerals and all. I just took the opportunity to mine it first. [04:17]

Charlotte: I see, and what are you going to do with the gold, exactly? [04:23]

Martin: Some on the board said we should smelt them and... actually, I don't know how to answer that without revealing much. Sorry. [04:32]

Charlotte: Ok. So, here's something a bit mundane: "How do your people maintain the roads?". This is a question one of my colleagues wants me to ask because he wrote an article on how abysmal the roads over the south are, and he was surprised when the Free State managed to fix it, with little time and resources. So can you offer us some insight into the whole endeavor? [04:54]

Martin: Yeah, sure. Uhm, some of the roads here are pretty simple, so it's not hard for us to fix them. I don't have much insight on the specifics since I usually leave that to Obediah, our Councilor of Infrastructure. But since we obviously have to maintain them to keep the trade flowing from city to city and-- [05:25]

Charlotte: And your men do this alone or-- [05:28]

Martin: We work with the local engineers and foreman that used to work for Haftar's regime. Sometimes, we ask them to look for some cracks and stuff so we could patch them up as quickly as we can. For the most part, it's mostly sand covering the roads, so it's pretty easy to blow it off. [05:44]

Charlotte: The south is rather huge, surely you have more than just the locals that would-- [05:49]

Martin: Uhm, we do have others doing the rest of the work, but… Yeah, I don’t really want to talk about those people either. [05:56]

Charlotte: Why so? [05:49]

Martin: Eh, I don’t want to say much, to be honest. [05:53]

Charlotte: I see. If that’s the case, let’s move on then. [05:56]

Martin: Good. [05:57]

Charlotte: Ok, here's an interesting one: “How did people from Europe and the U.S. reach Sabha?”. Now we have our own findings in the Mediterranean, but I remember you saying that our coverage is pretty laughable. Since you think that we’re wrong, I thought that you could explain it yourself. [06:14]

Martin: I mean, most of us have to cross through Africa. The travel is relatively cheap, and the caravans over the Sahels make it easier to reach here. That's all I could say, really. [06:23]

Charlotte: Surely there has to be more than that? You could at least-- [06:25]

Martin: Look, we don't set up a yellow brick road just so Dorothy could reach the Emerald. If they spend a little of their time on a map, then they'll probably know where it is, right? Like I assume that these people are smart enough to make it here alive, so no biggie for us. [06:51]

Charlotte: I see. Uhm… Well, here's another one that’s kinda related to our last question, if you don't mind? [06:59]

Martin: Yeah, sure. [07:00]

Charlotte: There’s been a lot of Americans migrating to Libya since 2021, the same year when you set up this project. I wrote an estimate where it numbers around 7,000-- [07:05]

Martin: --35,000. [07:07]

Charlotte: 35,000? [07:09]

Martin: Yeah. [07:10]

Charlotte: As in the total numbers across the Free State. [07:15]

Martin: At least that's what our census has to say. Like we could've accepted more since we have over 100,000 requests from last year, but we only accept people with applicable skills. Most of us here are craftsmen, agriculturists, civil engineers, and even scientists. We don't want the project to become a nanny state and take care of the burden that comes with it, y'know. [07:29]

Charlotte: And they never faced any problems since they moved. [07:34]

Martin: Some of them are a little homesick, so we tried our best to make the city as familiar as possible. Almost all of them settled around the Al-Manshia district because it was relatively empty. Few of them brought their entire family here, believe it or not. [07:49]

Charlotte: So they don't face any problems with locals at all? [07:52]

Martin: Nope, it's pretty negligible. [07:55]

Charlotte: Negligible as in? [07:57]

Martin: Negligible as in there's not much conflict between us and them. So far, we're pretty cool with local tribes. In fact, they love how much we’ve done for them here. [08:07]

Charlotte: That's a rather condescending statement, don't you think? [08:11]

Martin: I'm just stating the facts here. [08:14]

Charlotte: I mean back in 2022, you said the Libyan are aimless and incapable of building civili-- [08:19]

Martin: I don't remember saying that. [08:21]

Charlotte: Well, I'm basing it on an archived tweet you made. So I was surprised that you're-- [08:26]

Martin: Look, I didn't say anything like that. And even if I did, I don't think it matters because we're still on good terms anyway. They're pretty grateful for what we've done, so if you're wondering whether I'm racist or not, go ask them! [08:39]

Charlotte: I see. Anyway, before we head to our final talking-point, there's another question from our chat here. PinkPeaches says, "I know that you have some sort of a military considering you're in the middle of a war-torn country, but do they operate freely, or are there's like a system they have to follow through?". [08:57]

Martin: Thank you, PinkPeaches. That's a really good question, actually. No, they don't operate freely. Otherwise, they'll be no different to the warlords up north. I'm basically their equivalent to a Commander-in-chief; that's one of the main responsibilities I have to deal with as Chief Representative. Although I leave details of security to one of my friends, Ljubomir. [09:15]

Charlotte: Wait, an army? I thought the Free State is an anarcho-capital-- [09:18]

Martin: We're libertarians, not ancaps. You could say we're pretty minarchist on the whole endeavor. Other than some basic functions, our government is pretty limited to protecting our rights and lands. Besides, we don’t force anyone into the fold. You can either volunteer to the Core Army or whatever security force our guys formed since 2021. [09:37]

Charlotte: The Core Army? [09:39]

Martin: It’s like our official defense force. Some people call them mercenaries, but that’s such a strong connotation. To me, a hired gun is a better word for them. It doesn’t mean there are no volunteers into the mix, though. In fact, their numbers are growing fast so… yeah. [09:57]

Charlotte: I see. Is that all you have to say? [10:01]

Martin: Yeah, that's pretty much it. Thanks for the question, uhh... PinkPeaches. That was a good one. [10:07]

Charlotte: Ok, on to the last question. This one is going to be lengthy, so I hope you don't mind. [10:12]

Martin: Yeah, sure. [10:13]

Charlotte: Back in 2022, one of my colleagues, Susan Maccaferry, wrote a piece about the escalation of the refugee crisis in Libya. She explained how the refugee smuggling scheme has gone worse ever since the breakout of the civil war. [10:25]

Martin: Ok, but what it has to do with me exactly? [10:28]

Charlotte: There's an interesting read where she wrote about Sabha being the most prominent smuggling hub in the country. In fact, human-trafficking has exploded ever since 2021, the exact years when you jump-started the Free State. There's a lot of evidence and testimonies that you’re partially responsi-- [10:42]

Martin: What evidence? [10:43]

Charlotte: Excuse me? [10:42]

Martin: Like I said, what "evidence"? Didn't you save you have-- [10:46]

Charlotte: Let's make this quick since you sounds rather irritated with what I have to say here: How do you feel about being partially responsible for the further escalation of human-trafficking and many humanitarian crises in Libya, especially with the plethora of concrete evidence provided against you? [11:03]

Martin: Uh... nothing. [11:13]

Charlotte: Nothing?! [11:14]

Martin: Yeah. [11:17]

Charlotte: Can you explain to us why you're-- [11:21]

Martin: I feel nothing is because I didn’t do anything wrong in the first place. How can I feel anything when you're accusing me of something that I didn't do? It's like accusing someone of a horrible crime they didn't make. [11:32]

Charlotte: You said it yourself back in 2023, live on Twitter before you got banned and a warrant of arrest from both FBI and ICC. I quote: "The best thing about having refugees in your home is them doing the housework for free, lol." Not only did you make it explicit, but you also inadvertently showcase shots of them scrubbing the floor. One of these people who escaped, Bashir Tofa, who we interviewed back in the back on January 15th, said he's one of many that you forced into labor and cramping people in auctions. More than that, he stated that you-- [12:04]

Martin: Look, you don’t need to get all emotional on this one, alright? We have-- we do encourage refugees to work in some places you might consider to be “horrible”, that's kinda true. But I also like to add that they don't mind the whole thing. In fact, they kinda love what we've done for them. [12:19]

Charlotte: So you do admit of forcing these people into labour?! [12:23]

Martin: I mean, Uhm... Look, it's like working on a better version of Amazon, right? Sure, they get a little bit of crap from us and you have to work for a day or two, but at least we treat them better. Instead of getting some crappy wage and health insurance that they'll never get to use, we give them free housing, good clothing, and real food. These people used to suffer in whatever third-world countries they used to squat in, now they're living in luxury. [12:47]

Charlotte: And you don't find this immoral at all?! You think making them surfer under literal slavery is better than-- [12:54]

Martin: I think it's the exact opposite: I think it's pretty immoral to let them pass north. I could've left them to die to whatever torpedoes Europe has to offer or rot in detention camps they're gonna end up in. But, as a man of conscience, I let them stay here. Y'know, a better one where they don't starve. [13:09]

Charlotte: So let me make this absolutely clear: You actually believe that holding them in shackles and continuing auctioning these people is “better” than helping them to-- [13:17]

Martin: I am helping them. Like I said, I could let them die in either way, but I let them live here. It’s weird because you’re the one who wrote how Europe keeps killing refugees instead of saving them, but you think what I’m doing here is wrong? To be honest, you should be thankful for what I’ve-- [13:33]

Charlotte: I’m sorry, but what you’ve just said here is complete and absolute bull. I never met anyone willing to commit to such a level of mental gymnastics to justify a horrific crime as much as you. [13:47]

Martin: Ok, that’s your opinion, and I respect that, I do. But the difference between yours and mine is that I based it on objective facts. You’re basing it on subjectives or whatever “evidence” you have against me. Worst of all, you think-- [14:01]

Charlotte: I have enough of this. It was wrong for me to bring you here in the first place. [14:06]

Martin: See, that’s what you guys always do. I try to be as reasonable as possible and you-- [14:13]

Charlotte: Goodbye, Mr. Geoff. [14:15]

<--- End Transcript --->