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shinigamispark — The FOXES
Published: 2005-02-27 21:07:51 +0000 UTC; Views: 5962; Favourites: 297; Downloads: 137
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These are the foxes. Vixen is the black male and Kitsune is the silver and black female. They are both silver foxes (vulpes fulves). From what we know they were originally from a fur farm and have been transferred to two different homes before we got them.EDIT March, 2007- We happened to be feeding the foxes one of the rat-poison contaminated pet foods from the 2007 recall, before we knew they were being recalled. Although Kit survived it, Vix did not.
For flavor, I found and converted a few videos of Vixen doing his rolling bark call. Enjoy!
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Comments: 133
Really want a pet fox, hoping to get one when i move out!
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they are terrible pets, very stinky and messy and stinky. like ferrets and skunks and rotten pepperoni rolled into a ball of fur.
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Some foxes don't smell as much as others, i don't think they are terrible pets. Any pet can be a terrible animal to own, it depends on what the person thinks. In my opinion, a fox would be something fun and challenging to care for and would be an incredible pet in my own eyes. I love foxes, i have wanted to own one for quite a few years now. I'm not one of those stupid people who go out and buy an animal without doing any research. I research every animal, even dog breeds, before i even think of buying it and bringing it into my home.
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Diet can make them smell worse. [link] is the best diet known. As for surgically removing the gland, it is pointless. It will only produce odor when they are frightened, similar to how a skunk would. Many animals can do this. Because your foxes were wild, they were probably a bit more nervous around humans and were "musking" more often, so that may be why they are so smelly.
They are beautiful, and I am sorry to hear that you lost one of them. I hope the other one is alive and well. $25 for a couple of foxes is quite a steal, wild or not.
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Diet can make anything smell worse- just try feeding a dog some eggs! XD
But honestly, these two were rescues from a fur farm so they were not really "wild" (I've rescued 'wild' animals, and there's a huuuuge difference) and didn't have much of a problem with us- while they were not cuddly by any means, they had no compunctions about walking right up and begging for treats, eating from our hands etc. It's possible they were nervous but it's far more likely that foxes are just smelly skunky/ferrety creatures. I didn't mind it, but it's strong enough to bear mentioning to people that think they want foxes as pets. Also serves as a good deterrent to those same people; foxes are not pets. These ones were never pets, we considered them wildlife rescues (and I suspect the lady sold them to us over the others oggling because everyone else wanted mittens).
They were lovely to have, since we had the space and ability. Kit didn't outlive Vix by long- I think she got lonely.
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I'm sure they were not wild to the extent of what a wild fox would be, but considering how tame a fox can be, I would consider it wild. I am amazed that you say they begged for treats and took from your hands. I would expect them to be more wild than that, though again not as much as a wild fox of course. The urine will always smell but many owners have reported that their foxes bodies have no odor (though of course others have reported the opposite). I've heard diet is a big part of it.
It is great that you rescued them. I hope to get one from a fur farm myself someday, though it will of course not be a pet like a dog or cat would. I will be prepared with a large outdoor enclosure when that magical day comes.
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I have pictures of Kit climbing up my leg to get treats from my hands when I stopped giving them to her immediately... they were silly creatures.
If you ever do get them, be sure your enclosure is wired side, top, and bottom... they dig and climb AMAZINGLY well. Their best trick was to take a raw egg from us and run all over the enclosure going I HAVE AN EGG I HAVE AN EGG and when the novelty wore off, they would scale a wall straight to the ceiling of their enclosure (about 6 feet), tip their head sideways, and let go of the egg so it broke on the ground. I have no doubts they would go straight past the top of we hadn't fenced it there too.
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That is really quite amazing that they were that tame. I really assumed that considering their history, they'd be very reserved from humans. It is good that they were able to live out the rest of their lives with you.
Oh yes I've owned some less wild exotics and currently have a raccoon in an outdoor enclosure. 240 square feet, chain link side panels, welded wire top and bottom. It's not perfect but it does the job.
That is hilarious the way the foxes would run around like "I HAVE AN EGG I HAVE AN EGG" Hahaha! They sound like they were very comical 
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They had actually been passed through two homes before us- the original people that rescued them (and I say rescued, but the farm closed down and so they were taken in, not really liberated) gave them to the people we got them from because they were not house trained (duh). The people we got them from had worked some with them and kept them with dogs that were friendly toward them... I think that probably helped.
They were -quite- comical. And you know, they were almost completely silent, except the male had this rolling bark/call he did a couple times a day for about one month out of the year when their breeding season started. I wish I knew where the videos we took of that are... somewhere on an old hard drive no doubt.
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Were they young when received from the fur farm? I assumed they were adults. Some people manage to litter train reds...but the stench I have heard is pretty bad and not practical for indoors. I've never actually smelled one myself.
Completely silent, that surprises me as well as I've heard they pretty loud and vocal. If you ever stumble upon those old videos, I'd love to see them. Some people who have foxes say they will "scream" or call for several minutes at a time, so it sounds like you got lucky!
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A friend did indeed have 2 of the 3 videos I had taken of Vixen calling. I just finished putting them up on youtube. They are from an ANCIENT camera (like so ancient you can hear it tracking/focusing as it labors to record LOL), and so I had to convert the file format to something youtube could recognize... thus, very poor quality converted to even worse quality!
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Hope they're enjoyable
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We were told their age was unknown, so I suspect that they were adults when they were received. We never had to litter train them, but I've seen videos of house-tame foxes so I assume it's possible but like you said... not practical. Their enclosure was a good distance from the house, but every now and again a breeze would blow the right way....
I will see if I can dig up copies of those calls and put them on youtube for you. I'm sure someone amongst my friends still has copies, I know I sent them around at the time.
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The quality was not bad in my opinion, especially the sound quality which was great. Thank you so much for taking the time to upload the videos! Apparently they can be much noisier... [link] The red fox shows off her powerful voice right at the beginning (well, after the stuff in Czech). I think it is out of excitement as she did not look angry.
I probably wouldn't bother with litter training either as mine would end up living outdoors. I'm concerned since you say the enclosure was a good distance from the house but you could smell it when the wind would blow the right direction...eeks. Now imagine it in your house! lol
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HOLY COW~! Yeah we NEVER heard anything like that from them. Even when they were beside themselves happy with their egg, they never screamed like that! I wonder if that is as piercing as it sounds or if the video is distorted because they are indoors and it echoes? It *sounds* a little like a distorted bark... but I certainly wouldn't want to hear that in the middle of the night!! yeesh!
Yeah the enclosure was maybeee.... 30 yards or so from the house I would say. It was built on to the side of the barn to give them some wind break, but was otherwise open to having the wind carry off the smell... and we raked and cleaned it daily when we put their food in- which was dog/cat food with raw egg and meat if I recall. We treated them with eggs and the mice we live trapped in the barn (gave 'em something to chase briefly), and very occasionally cooked meat from leftovers... maybe the oatmeal would have helped, but I doubt it would have changed much. Skunky-pepperoni-ferret I can't imagine changes much for anything!
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Yeah, I wondered how it sounds it real life as well because it is very...er, impressive in the video. That would be something for the neighbors to complain about, that is for sure.
I can't remember if I asked, so I am sorry if I did - were the foxes neutered/spayed? It is supposed to help some with the odor and marking. It sounds like you fed them well. Pepperoni odor? haha!
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They were not fixed, we didn't have any good reason to put Kit through major surgery or either of them through the stress of the vet visit (or more likely, couple of vet visits) to do it. We gave them their shots ourselves (TSC sells the most common ones for cheap out in farm country... and Sara went to school for biology/vet stuff and I grew up vaccinating all my own animals...), like distemper, so there was really no good reason to even go to the vet. I think Sara was hoping they'd have pups so she could bottle raise one... but alas.
And yeah. We pinned down the description of their odor as being akin to a giant ferret that got sprayed by a skunk and rolled in pepperoni to try to get rid of the smell. It was... a very special odor.
Have you ever heard of the project a guy did with foxes, over several decades, where he took a group of foxes and selected the 'friendliest' pups from their litters and bred them and bred the friendliest of theirs, etc? I believe the experiment was scrapped, but the people in it took it into their own hands someplace in Russia. Now they've got pet foxes (I believe red and silver) that wag their tails and cuddle humans- and most importantly, they've lost their musky smell... odd, eh?
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Yeah I wouldn't have fixed them either since they lived outdoors and doesn't sound like there was much reason to put them through it. Could you find rabies vaccines for them? I've found distemper and others but not rabies of course. Maybe it isn't legal in my state to give them yourself. Not sure. How long did they live for?
That sounds like a very very nasty smell...yuck, but the description is funny! It was their actual bodies that smelled that way or just the waste? Did they roll in their waste? I have heard they like doing that as kits.
The Russian domestication project? Oh yes. I didn't know that a single individual began it and handed it over to the Russians. That's interesting. There are a few fox fans here and there that for some reason set their sights on buying one of those foxes. There is a woman on Sybil's Message Board who is about to get one this March. She attempted to get one through a crappy importer called Sibfox and they were doing it illegally (which this woman, called Zebrafox on the forum) did not know. The foxes were confiscated and are now in a zoo in Texas. She's now hired her own importer to go and pick one up. It's a pretty big deal. I think she may be the first in the nation to have one.
Anyway, there are a few members on the forum here and there that insist on getting one of those "domesticated" foxes, but it seems like there are quite a few who say it is silly, that you should just get one from a pet breeder here, etc. A breeder in Indiana posted pictures of his own foxes that show traits that the russian foxes do, such as floppy ears and tails curled over the back. I wouldn't say that the foxes the russians have are domesticated as it's been like 70 years or something. It is more deliberate than animals that have been domesticated currently so perhaps it's a bit further along than dogs might have been in 70 years...but I wouldn't call it domestication. I guess we will find out how different they are when Zebrafox receives her adult red fox this March. There are some people in other countries that have these foxes and they're kept outdoors. I suspect they do still have an odor.
Also, you can find many videos on youtube of pet foxes that are from regular breeders that wag tails and cuddle humans. I guess the russian ones are supposed to be social and not be TAUGHT to desire human affection, but to just naturally want it like a domestic animal. However, in the end, I don't think it would make them very different as a pet because if you get one from a breeder that has been taught, it will be your pet and love you and want your attention just as the russian will love you and want your attention. In the end, it seems like you just get the same result. Zebrafox could have had her kit last spring when she tried to get a kit through sibfox. Instead she waited all these months and will have an adult red instead.
Sorry for the novel. Just my two cents on the "domestic" foxes
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Sigh... I wrote a novel and DA ate it... trying again!
Their waste smelled worse than their bodies, but their bodies also had a heavy scent; they did not roll in their waste, but had the charming habit of eating as much as they could, then turning around and relieving themselves (on purpose) in the bowl on whatever was left. We eventually had to rig the bowls to be at a height and angle that they could eat but not do that.
I don't really like dogs very much, but I did volunteer a couple times at the ASPCA in west michigan, which serves also as a wolfdog rescue; those are "domesticated" wolves in the sense that they've got mostly wolf blood but were 'taught' to be social. I also raise birds (peafowl, quail, chickens) and I know in them there is a HUGE difference between a bird that is naturally social and a bird that is taught to be social. Many people have told me that peafowl are not social/affectionate toward humans and are always wild/flighty. I believe my hen, Osiris, proves that there are exceptions, but I also know that she was taught affection and that she would be a different bird if she'd been bred to be naturally affectionate.
A great example of the difference between domestic animals and trained animals would be what has been done with servals in the past few years (decades?). The F4/F5+ generations (the F generation being the number of generations removed from the wild) of servals (large cats) are starting to become more 'housecat' like, but the difference between a serval and a house cat is VAST in personality.... Sure they've been taught that humans are cool, but the wild tendencies they have are still very clear. Their selective breeding by responsible breeders has lead to great improvement in this area (like F5 gens stand a chance of not eating your housecat/children, where as an F1 might behave in your presence but consider its options when you are out of sight). I think that is going to be the major difference you see between what I will call 'imprinted' foxes and truly purpose-bred domestic foxes like the ones the Russians are working on.
And no problem on the novel! I am having fun talking with you ^_^ It's refreshing to have a good conversation on here to look forward to after work!
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Oh no I HATE it when that happens!
Eeesh yeah I have heard they like to mark in their bowls, but I haven't heard about actual like...complete bladder or bowel relieving in the bowls. Very nasty. I have heard that getting buckets and cutting holes in the side will keep them from marking in their food areas. I'll be rigging that up when the magical day comes when I can get a fox.
Interesting, you're not a fan of dogs but you liked foxes. I've never met a wolfdog and I haven't met many birds either. A lot of people confuse domestication and taming. Many exotics can be tamed to be friendly with people but never on the level of a domestic animal of course.
I don't know much about exotic cats. That is interesting about the servals. They are pretty animals, but not something I'm interested in ever having. I wouldn't want something that would want to eat my hypothetical children lol. I suppose we will find out what the "domestic" foxes are like when Zebrafox gets hers. Everyone on the forum is really looking forward to it. Either it will be super awesome and everyone will want one or just be like a tamed fox. I can't see spending the $7k on one no matter how friendly it is.
I am having fun talking with you as well! The conversation is something I look forward to as well
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The foxes we had didn't act like dogs- to me, dogs are... well, dumb. I don't mean stupid, because I've met some very smart dogs, but there's a difference in my mind between being smart and being intelligent. I've held that dogs love people because it doesn't occur to them not to, where as cats love people despite that it occurs to them not to. I'd much prefer the latter, and the foxes were like that. When you walked into the cage with them, you could see them debating whether or not they wanted to come over, and you could see the decision when it happened, because they'd go from standing across the pen staaaaaring intensely at you, to suddenly running around your feet.
Funny you should mention buckets with holes cut in the sides- we have to do that for my peacocks. Not for the same reason though- the peas like to "sort" their food, and by sort I mean fling it everywhere trying to find a piece that is acceptably tasty. Having to stick their heads into the bucket somewhat cuts down on the flingage of food XD But, I don't know how well that would stop the foxes- if others say it works, it's worth a shot. I never observed them spraying like cats can, but if they can they may work out how to position and spray right into the buckets! They are intelligent that way, they consider problems and figure out how to solve them... you have to stay a step ahead haha!
I think the major difference between domestication and tame is that a tame animal will tolerate interaction (for instance Osiris will tolerate me scratching her chin or petting her neck or touching her toes... she'll even tolerate me hugging her or giving her ivermectin injections for worming, though she grumbles) where as domesticated animals will seek interaction. I suspect that with tame foxes, if they had a choice between interacting with humans and interacting with foxes, they'd most likely choose the foxes, where as a domestic fox, given a choice, would interact with the human. Alone in a house without a choice, I think both tame and domestic will seek interaction with humans; if only because foxes ARE social.
It will be interesting to see how it goes for Zebra. I would be especially interested if someone near her got a "tame" fox and the two were given a chance to meet. If I had to make a guess, I'd say the tame fox would approach the domestic one and the domestic one might interact, but might also shy to the protection of its human. Ah, speculation.
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I see what you mean about dogs. That makes sense - "dumb", but not in the not-smart way. That is very interesting that the foxes would actually stare and you and debate whether or not they wanted to come see you or not. I've read a lot about foxes in captivity and as pets and I'd never read anything describing them in that way. Very unique. I'm even more interested to see what it is like to meet one and know one.
Peacocks sound interesting. I had a former coworker give me some feathers from her peacocks. They're very beautiful, but nothing like the real animal of course. I'd like to keep some sort of outdoor bird someday. I didn't know that they "sort" their food like that. That's amusing. I figured the food given would just be all the same thing - like all corn or something for example. I take it they get blends of seeds or something? Forgive me, I know nothing about birds >.<
Did the foxes ever mark on you? I can imagine it got old having to clean urine out of their bowls every day. From what I have read about them, they're not on the level of "tameness" or as close to "domestication" as, say, raccoons are. I have a raccoon from a fur farm and they're quite clean, pretty calm, tame, etc. He doesn't urine mark despite being neutered late. They don't really have weird or gross habits and they aren't terribly aloof or nervous as foxes sound to be. I'm looking forward to seeing how different foxes really are from them since from what I have read, foxes are supposed to more wild.
I would say that you're right about the difference between domestic and tame animals. When my raccoon was a baby, he lived in our sunroom. We'd bring him in a few hours or more every day. He'd at first explore the kitchen, mess around, try and find stuff to eat, then he'd relax and come downstairs and sit with me in my bedroom where the computer is. He likes to get between my back and the back of the chair and sit there. He will sometimes try and take my earrings or touch my skin on my lower back (he's always liked that), and sometimes nap on the desk. I suppose, though, if we had two raccoons, he would have spent more time with the other raccoon than with me. I guess that is why people say that when you get a young exotic/wild animal, you have to keep it from spending too much time with other animals so it will bond to you and not them.
There are some other forum members that live near Zebra, though I am not sure just how close. Maybe she will have a little fox meet up with them sometime and they will report on the forum how it went. I hope so, as it would be very interesting to hear about.
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Actually, the peacocks get a 16% protein layer feed that is pelleted... so it all looks the same. The only difference I can tell is the length of the pellets. I also give them dry kitten chow because they actually need higher protein for feather growth than the layer feed- but they keep sorting after they've picked all the kitten food out to eat first. So I have no idea what they are doing! Also they make great outdoor birds if you live in a country area- they roost high in the trees, make a SUPER loud alarm call if something comes near your yard, and they'll kill most rodents and snakes that come around.
You're probably not going to like this paragraph much- I assure you I have no ill will toward YOUR raccoon, and I can appreciate people having affection for raccoons (I've been friends with quite a few over the years, helped rescue a few at a friend's FAAAAR from my place), but they happen to be my mortal enemy when they're around the house. It's not that I don't think they are cute, but they've killed so many birds (thankfully none of my peacocks yet, but they've gotten plenty of chickens/ducks/geese) that we don't tolerate them any more. Raccoons, skunks, weasels, and mink... I thankfully have never seen a fox in the area- I'm not sure I could take a shot at one, or a coyote if I actually saw one around my pens. I hope I never have to make that choice. People argue for live traps, and it's a good idea in theory... but when you live trap and release it someplace else, either it travels back or else you drop your problem on someone else's doorstep.
And no, the foxes never marked on us. Actually, it was strange. I don't recall ever coming out of the pen and going "man I reek of fox!" even though we petted them and stuff. I mean occasionally if you stepped in something unsavory, your boots would stink... but I don't remember their fur leaving a scent.
Do you ever have animal swap meets in your area? Michigan does... I think 5 of them every summer. It's mostly game birds and poultry, but often times there are other animals for sale. That's how we ended up with the foxes- they were hanging out at a stall there, randomly. We've seen everything from snakes to camels to emus to deer at these things. Maybe if there are swaps near you, you might attend (ours are usually free, the big one in Indiana is $5 a car for parking) and happen across a fox?
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Kitten food for birds, that's interesting. I didn't know birds could have meats. Perhaps the pellets have different levels of smell or different smells all together so they're looking for the best one...or maybe they like certain sizes or shapes. That is funny stuff. I do live in a country area currently. Since they roost high in the trees, does that mean you don't need to construct shelters or fencing for them? Sounds like they're pretty good birds to have...and pretty.
I actually am not at all bothered by that paragraph. I understand that they can be absolutely very obnoxious and problematic to people, especially people with outdoor animals. We have never had a problem with them at our place but our neighbor, who has outdoor cats and keeps their food outside, always has them hanging around his deck and has shot several of them. Personally, I think he'd have less of a problem if he put the food inside. In your case, a solution isn't so simple since they're after your outdoor animals. Do the peacocks do the alarm call thing if they see raccoons or other dangerous animals in the yard? Have you seen skunks go after your birds too? That kind of surprises me. They're sort of small, dopey animals. Mink wouldn't surprise me as they're little fighters but I've never actually seen one where I live. I think it may actually be illegal to live trap animals and release them somewhere else but I'm not sure. It's quite a bit of work to live trap every pest that comes on the property, then go several miles away to let it go, just to have more show up the next day anyway.
Hmm so the scent didn't rub off on you...could you hug them or hold them close? Some people are able to hold their foxes in their arms, with the fox's belly up like a big furry baby haha. I think you'd have to have a pretty tame fox for that, though.
We do have some animal swap meets sort of nearby. Michigan is a pretty good state for owning exotic and wild species of animals. I've considered moving there someday. Camels at a swap meet, eh? That'd be pretty interesting. I didn't know there were any swap meets in Indiana. I know there are major exotic sales in Ohio and Missouri. I saw a coatimundi at a sale a couple hours from me. It went for like $60 some dollars! The major sales will probably always have foxes, though never red foxes at the Missouri sale as they're illegal in that state. Arctics and fennecs, though. I like arctics.
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We do have shelter for them, and my hand-raised ones use it, but the others are not as fond of them. They'll come in if it's pouring, or if it gets really windy, or REALLY cold. I put the food inside the shelter too (mostly so it doesn't get rained on or blown away, and so it can't be seen by other animals), so they kind of have to go in if they want to eat. As for the meats, well, it's more like they usually would get a lot of protein from eating bugs, so that has to get made up for in their pelleted food somehow. They absolutely can eat meat- ours kill and eat bits of rodents and I haven't had any snakes in their pen yet, but I have seen pictures of what peacocks do to snakes... I assume there's some eating involved after the fact XD Mine are penned at the moment, because they are young and I am moving, so there's no place for them to go.
They sure will make alarm calls for raccoons, but since 'coons are mostly nocturnal, they might sleep through visitations. What I worry most about with racoons is actually not that they'll get into my pen, but they stand just outside it and wait... curious (and stupid) bird sticks its head through the wire and the raccoon grabs it and eats... just the head. But like I said, at where they are now, so far nothing like that has happened. Hoping I can keep everyone safe. The skunks don't usually go for the birds themselves- sometimes the babies, but usually they go for eggs if they can get inside, or if they find a free-range chicken that's laying out of the barn.
Well, we didn't really hug them. About the only time we ever did something like that was when we very first got them. The lady sold them to us as a male and a female... only when we got home and actually watched them, I realized she was wrong about which was which, and I wanted to be sure... so I grabbed Vix and uh... groped him. And then hugged him while Sara groped him, just to make sure I wasn't imagining things. He didn't really struggle; though if it was because he'd just given up, or was tired from all the Swap Meet business, or if he truly didn't mind I may never know.
We see skunks and capybaras (sp?) at the swaps now and again, but only the once for foxes. I'm not sure it's terribly legal, actually, to own them, but Sara had done her stuff to be a wildlife rescuer, so we didn't really make a big deal of it and no one bothered them.
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Hmm so perhaps the hand raised ones are accustomed to you so they're willing to use the shelter which they see as being associated to humans? Just a theory I guess. What temperatures can they tolerate? I would think keeping the food in the shelter would also keep them from making a big mess/wasting food when they're sorting it. I guess I didn't think about their eating of insects, rodents, and snakes, so that would make sense that they could eat the cat food. I wouldn't mind having some peacocks around to keep the bugs, pests, and snakes down. Snakes kinda creep me out.
Are the peacocks diurnal then? I admit, the thought of a raccoon waiting patiently outside of a pen and the curious bird sticking it's head out is a bit amusing...coons are pretty intelligent like that it seems. I've heard they can pick locks even...I haven't actually tested to see just how good they are at this. Should I ever get my hands on an appropriate lock, I'll have to set it in my coon's enclosure and take video of him picking it. I've never seen any videos of it before so it would be a nice thing to upload to YouTube. Anyway, that would be a very horrible fate for the bird as well as a gruesome thing to come upon for the bird owner. Eeugh...I wouldn't think the raccoon would want to eat the bird's head anyway...there cannot be much meat to it. I would think skunks would have a hard time taking down a bird as birds are probably very quick. Maybe I underestimate skunks...
I've heard it's pretty obvious/easy to sex foxes as they're like dogs in that way. It's probably pretty hard to get a good look at that area, though, unless the fox turns over or stands up, so perhaps that's why the previous owner of the foxes didn't know what sexes they were.
Hm, well, in Michigan, I believe to own red foxes, you need a permit, but I don't think it's something that is difficult to get. Whatever species are native need permits, but Arctics and Fennecs I think can be kept without one. It seems like many states will exempt licensed wildlife rehabilitators and allow them to keep banned animals. My state is like that. So I think here, a wildlife rehabber can keep crazy stuff that is banned, technically, like even elephants or something. They don't have to be rehabbing it, they're just allowed to keep it, but it has to obey other laws like being from a USDA breeder I think. Laws are really weird...
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Well, there are two species of peacock, the India Blue and the Java Green. The greens aren't capable of surviving michigan winters without a heated barn, but the blues are ok in the snow. Mine are blues. The neat thing about peafowl is that if you hybridize the two, the greens and the blues, the hybrids (called spaldings after Mrs. Spalding who was the first to try it) are fertile! And they can survive the winters. A hybrid with a lot of green in its phenotype can look extraordinarily like a javanese pea, but be able to survive the winters like a blue. Curiously, there are a ton of color mutations in the blue peafowl, but there are NONE in the green. They have *fascinating* genetics.
Yep, they are diurnal, mine start figuring out where to roost just as the sun goes down and they are up at daybreak. I have seen Osiris napping on boring days and they like nothing better than a good sandy spot in the sun- this summer the temps here got over 100 and I was afraid they would overheat... but no, when I brought them chilled watermelon to cool off, they were out sunning themselves like "ahhh 
Raccoons ARE really good at getting into things. The best lock we've used are actually carabeners.... for some reason I haven't met a 'coon that can operate a carabener. I dunno about actual locks, like with keys or with a spin opener, but Sara kept a ton of rescues in the enclosures in her backyard, and locked them with carabeners and none of them ever got out, despite constantly playing with them. The wild ones are typically more determined than they are clever; a determined raccoon will come back multiple nights prying at any loose fencing until they manage to get through. We walk the coop fences every day checking for any sign that something is attempting to get through so we can fix it before they manage.
I wonder, our foxes were silver foxes, which are technically red foxes (the silvers were descended from a 'phase' of the red fox)... but since they were probably considered "domestic" because they were from a fur farm (and I don't mean domestic how you and I are discussing, but domestic by legal terms by generations removed from wild) if they would fall under the same laws. I don't think we're allowed to SELL fennecs here, but I think we can own them. Sara's always wanted to drive to Texas and buy one from a pet store she knows down there XD I wouldn't mind one either... but it'll have to wait.
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Ah, so if I ever get peacocks, I will probably end up with the India Blues. It's amazing what animals can breed and produce hybrids. Arctic and red foxes can be "bred" by artificial insemination but their offspring is sterile. They're very rare of course since they must be created through AI. I think there is at least one breeder in the US who has or is breeding them.
The benefit of the peacocks being diurnal is that you can watch their activity all day. I bet they're pretty entertaining to watch. If they can tolerate extreme cold and heat, then they've got to be pretty hardy birds. Have you ever kept chickens? Are they easier or more difficult to keep? I've heard that chickens are easy. Peacocks don't sound to be too difficult. I like that they roost in trees.
I'm not sure exactly what sort of locks raccoons are supposed to be able to pick. I guess whatever is pictured here: [link] I have a master's lock on my raccoon's enclosure so of course, he can't do anything to pick it. It is more to keep people out than to keep him in. However, there is a perimeter fence around his enclosure so people would have to go through that to get up to the pen anyway. I'm surprised that they cannot figure out carabener locks. I've never even seen my raccoon mess with the handle/latch thinger on the door of his enclosure so I'd say he's not terribly determined. I wonder if wild raccoons ever pay him a visit out of curiosity. I guess that's another reason to have that master lock.
Oh yes I had forgotten about the Michigan law stating that foxes are domestic animals. I think it will apply to all but I am not sure. Zebrafox is getting a red and she is using that law as legal defense. The city people are trying to tell her that she cannot keep the fox when it is legal, so she's off dealing with that before she imports the fox. I thought that reds required permits, but I may be remembering that wrong. Fennec foxes are cute but not my cup of tea. So small, fragile, not good at litter training but pretty much have to be kept inside...etc. I prefer the more dog-like species of foxes. Fennecs are so expensive, too. Someday, I'd like to have a red (silver colored being my favorite morph), arctic, and/or gray. Ah, someday...
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Chickens are way easier than peacocks, and peacocks are not that difficult. The biggest thing about chickens is that they don't really... uh... defend themselves, I guess, and they are not very bright. Most people keep roosters (more roosters than they maybe need) around because if something comes in for the hens, the roosters will attack it- you might lose the rooster, but your laying hens might survive. The good thing about chickens is that they will for sure come into the coop to be locked up at night and they're good at sticking around if you raise them in the coop and want to free range them. That's the worst thing about peafowl... even if you raise them in a coop/pen or even imprint them to be super friendly and like you... if you turn them loose to free-range it's still 50/50 on whether they stay or go since they are not nearly as domestic as chickens.
I would call those "latches" instead of locks since they don't require keys of any sort (physical keys or number sequence keys). If you want to check to see what is visiting his cage overnight, you can put a thin dusting of flour around the cage and look for tracks the next morning. I'd bet something or other visits when you aren't looking!
I'm pretty sure it's only the silvers that are considered domestics (because of the fur trade) because I know reds can still be taken and I have see arctics at the ASPCA that I believe were taken. I actually am not sure, since fennecs can't be sold here, if we can OWN them, just not sell them... I have never looked into it thoroughly.
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Hmm so chickens must be pretty easy then. Though it sounds like not terribly bright...perhaps they were more intelligent and deep thinking prior to domestication. At least they're fairly cheap and easy to find for purchase and stick around the property easily. I like that. I gues some people keep them as pets in the house and put diapers on them, which I think is kind of cute. I wouldn't mind trying it if we didn't have predators in the house.
Yeah I suppose you're right, they're latches rather than locks. I can't imagine a coon being able to figure out an actual lock that you described. However, latches are pretty good for an animal to figure out. I've read that they can open doors and flick light switches. I don't keep mine indoors so I'm not sure what sort of things they are really capable of. I do hope to give him a room of his own and connect it to an outdoor pen when I have my own property. The flour idea is excellent, I wouldn't have thought of that! The pen is surrounded by grass so we'd have to lay down boards or something around the pen and then dust those with the flour. It would have to be on a night where there isn't much wind, too. I'm sure summer will bring some interesting wildlife activity so perhaps that's when I will try it.
There was a law linked for Zebrafox on the forum. [link] (S(fl4gupb0qsxb5g453jgzlw45))/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-324-43101.pdf It doesn't seem to include reds but I didn't read it very carefully. My brain is not up for absorbing legal mumbo jumbo tonight. I'm not sure why it was mentioned since legally it would mean that Zebra's fox isn't domesticated since it is red in color. I don't see why they specify certain colors since they are all vulpes vuples...but that's the law for you, typically not logical it seems. When you say taken, are you referring to foxes that were confiscated from owners?
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Sorry it took so long to respond, been lazy and away with life!
Chickens, I think, have always been a tad... stupid. They originated from red jungle fowl (which are still around) in Asia mostly, unless you're talking blue egg layers, in which case you're talking araucanas from south america. From then to now, they've gotten meatier, less aggressive, less social, and less active, but I'm not sure less intelligent particularly applies XD They were probably domesticated by so many cultures BECAUSE they were naturally sort of domestic. Although, if you're looking at game fowl vs. domestic fowl in terms of chickens, the "game fowl" includes current day red jungle fowl and their ilk (maybe like, black sumatrans and some others) and those are gonna be the ones people still use for cock fighting because the males are still NASTY birds.
And yes... people definitely keep them in the house. I certainly wouldn't do that ... And those links are totally not one of my peacocks living in my room while recovering from surgery. That would be nuts, right?
And yes, latches even are a hurdle for the vast majority of animals- the lack of opposable thumbs tends to catch up most critters for fine motor function capability. But the raccoons have those itty bitty fingers and they love feeling things with them. I assume they just feel and feel and are determinedly interested until the latch stops being latched.
I can't open that link to the page you probably wanted, but as far as I'm aware when we looked up the laws in 2005, it is legal to own any fox that is not NATIVE to Michigan- which is ONLY the red phase of the red fox. Silver, blacks, or any of the other color-phase mutations of the red fox are legal to own in Michigan (because Michigan considers them a domesticated animal, not an exotic, as long as they were born in captivity), as well as any other species of fox, excepting the grey fox (you need a permit for those, but you can still own them) and I guess including the fennec after all. [link] aaand [link]
When I say taken, yes I mean confiscated. The state can still confiscate red foxes with red fur color, but not any of their recognized "sub species" like the silver and black phases. I guess the artic fox must've been a surrender, which happens too when people get a fox thinking "yay a cool dog like animal!" and end up giving it up when they find out "oh, pepperoni/skunk/ferret animal".
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Ah sorry for my late reply as well!
I just learned a lot more about chickens. Red Jungle Fowl...never heard of that. I never really thought of what chickens originated from...I just always thought of them as chickens but everything starts somewhere 
Ah the peacocks are so pretty. I love the greenish neck color. Very lovely. How do they do in the house? Can you train them to, er, do their business in certain areas like litter training or something?
Ah yes, raccoons are big feelers. My raccoon, Alex, will sit and put his hands on things and just rub it while looking away. I found out recently on a pet forum that other people's coons do that as well - the touching while looking away thing. He loves putting his hands in my pocket to feel my cellphone for some reason. He doesn't try to take it out, he just touches it. People think that they "wash" their food out of cleanliness but it's all about being able to feel their food.
Okay, that law makes sense. I wonder what Zebrafox is doing since she is getting a red colored red. I'm assuming it is allowed with a permit then? I really need to move to Michigan. Are you thinking of getting a Fennec then?
As sad as it is, I still sorta chuckled reading the "oh, pepperoni/skunk/ferret animal" part. People don't do their research sometimes...and it doesn't end well. I wouldn't think the smell would be so much of an issue if the person has an outdoor enclosure ready. However, people like to think that you can keep them in the house. There are people that do it, but not without sacrifices and effort. I personally would not bother. The smell has got to be terrible, and the destruction - yikes.
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Yep, we've got araucana chickens, along with Polish chickens and cochins. The polish ones look ridiculous... google "polish chicken" and giggle at the images XD
As for the peacocks... I like the blues, but my favorite are definitely the pied and the opal peafowl. Although, I saw a purple male this past summer and... well, I may have to change my mind!! He was so gorgeous! If I'd had extra space at the time, I'd have definitely bought him up and taken him home. Alas, I am currently house hunting so I am only boarding my few at the moment. You can't train them to go in a specific place, but you can get them indoor diapers from chickendiapers.com. That's what Blu had to wear post-surgery for his ankle, and he did ok with it.
And no... I don't think I will get a fox again. I was happy to rescue the two we did, but the smell and the care for them was... a lot more than I think I will have the patience for again. If it came to a point where we happen to see another at a swap, with the vulture-esque old men standing around talking about what nice gloves they'd make, I might consider swooping in for the rescue... but that's unlikely to happen again, as we've been going to swaps for nearly a decade and only have seen the two.
We used to get raccoons out on our back deck at my parent's house, they lived right by a small woods. The momma raccoon would bring her babies to our deck every summer, and we'd leave a kiddie pool with a slide set up... I'll be darned if they didn't use the slide like little kids! We would hand feed them sometimes, and they would always be staring at us while they felt up our hands before they grabbed the food.
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Wow, the polish chickens are so goofy looking! I found one picture comparing David Bowie to a polish chicken. There is a lot of variety in, er..."hairstyles" of the polish chickens.
The blue peafowl, in my opinion based on Google Image results, are probably my favorite of the three, but they are all very beautiful. Ah house hunting, hopefully you find something you like soon. I have heard about the chicken diapers - sounds pretty convenient. Are they destructive indoors at all?
Nearly 10 years going to swaps and only two foxes, that's kind of surprising. Well at least you enjoyed them while you had them and I'm sure, if they were capable of understanding, they'd be glad that you rescued them. I still hope to get one someday. Even though I've researched them for a while now, I probably have no idea just how much work they really are.
We've only had one raccoon at our house that I can remember. We live out in the middle of nowhere but we don't see much for wildlife other than typical birds, sometimes turkeys, and several deer. Driving is when I see raccoons and foxes. Did you ever get video of the raccoons playing on the slide? There is a video on youtube of that somewhere, but they only go down the slide once I think. They are such fun animals.
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The opals and purples are... well, not impressive in photographs. I had been very put out about the fuss everyone was making about the purples being so gorgeous and whatever, but all the pictures I saw, I could barely tell the difference between the purples and the blues! This summer was the first time I saw a boy in person... and it's a WORLD of difference. There are not, from what I have seen, any good pictures of the opals online. My boy, Octavian, is something else all together, like someone took and brushed over a peacock with a coating of silver and white, and now his neck is darkening up, so it looks like silver brushed over the top of a deep, deep purple... I wish it translated in images!
Blu wasn't... destructive. He was gimpy, so he didn't have very good control of walking or jumping, so when he tried to get up to perch on stuff, it was really clumsy. Other than that, he never scratched or pecked anything, just occasionally knocked things over when he tried to get up on stuff.
I never did get video of the raccoons... This was actually a long time before digital cameras, so the only one we had was this monstrous old VHS recorder video camera that would have been useless at night. The woods at my parents' house pretty much got demolished when some jerk bought it, plowed it, and built condos where it used to be. LAME. I think the raccoon's den must've gotten plowed over too, because we haven't seen them in years
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It seems that photographs cannot capture the true beauty and stunning colors of many things in life. I did notice that the purples and blues looked pretty similar in photos. The actual photo quality of the blues seemed to be better - I'm guessing because they're the most common color so there are more photos of them available. Have you taken any photos of Octavian? He does sound breathtaking!
Your description of Blu in the house reminds me of my giant rabbit - he is pretty awkward when it comes to climbing and jumping up on things. He'll knock things over and scratch up furniture and slide around trying to get on top of things. He is an unusual fellow, though maybe not unusual for a rabbit. He is the only rabbit I've ever known.
Ah, monstrous old VHS recorders. I have something like that myself. I must say, digital is so much better. Technology seems to have had a growth spurt recentlyish. Cameras, TVs, video game graphics, cell phones...many things have vastly improved in the last 5-10 years it seems. Then again, I'm not very old so maybe things were always progressing at this rate.
That's very sad about the woods near your parents house getting plowed for condos. Ugh, poor nature, and poor raccoons. Humans ruin everything. It makes me sad to think of the raccoons being in their den and getting run over by a giant machine, just getting squashed. It's tough for wild animals out there...after having a raccoon, my initial reaction when seeing them in the wild is to pull over and pick it up, and then I remember that they're raccoons, not kittens.
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oh! they're absolutely beautiful!! that is a terrific picture
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Hm, you named the MALE vixen? :I
Lol, they're lovely... I so wish I could own a fox someday.
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Yeah, it was an inside joke at the time. The person we got them from told us he was a girl. But I may have copped a feel when I first picked him up and SHORE 'NUFF he was definitely a boy!
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Awww. Strangely,Vixen looks like my half Chow, half Black lab mix except for the upright ears and the end of the tail. I'm sorry to hear that Vixen passed away.
May you and your foxes live long and happy lives.
--
"If you don't wish to become a pile of ash and molten iron, then please don't try to loot my horde. If you need armor or arms repaired, or need some blacksmithing done,then please go to my blacksmith's shop on Main Street. Besides, my horde's mainly scrap iron,junk,and books anyways. Signed, Garlicker the dragon." Sign outside Castle Ryuinu
I'm only 28% crazy.
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I'm sorry about Vixen. They're both so beautiful.
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omg i have never seen a silver fox befor 0_0
they are soooooo pretty!
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aaawwwwww no fair u get to live wit my fav animul? aaaawwwwww... great photo thow * lol that ryms photo&thow *
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You 're not having them for they fur ;_;?!
tell me that you don't haveing because of that T^T
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No! Of course not!! We rescued them from people who were going to turn them into pairs of mittens. We would never harm them.
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aw that's great! i hope! you have more foxes to rescue n__n good luck!
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