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tuffix In reply to ElenirLachlagos [2015-05-08 19:01:03 +0000 UTC]

Thanks for sharing your opinion (: I'm glad we're on the same page about the ban.
Although, I think that religious classes do make sense. Not because I wouldn't prefer all students to talk on these important issues together, but because I know that the alternative is quite bad: Kids go to any small mosque whose teachers are not certified and can tell them what ever they want.
You know what I mean?

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ElenirLachlagos In reply to tuffix [2015-05-30 10:39:45 +0000 UTC]

Yes, I know what you mean. You're right, that would be a problem, too.

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tuffix In reply to supershirley17 [2015-04-22 02:12:05 +0000 UTC]

thank you (:

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tuffix In reply to bookcook [2015-03-20 22:59:21 +0000 UTC]

Why are they a bad example?

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bookcook In reply to tuffix [2015-03-21 11:37:11 +0000 UTC]

Because they espouse discriminatory, undemocratic and atavistic mindsets with their attire. We can´t have that in a secular and democratic society, especially not in the school. They are bad enough as it is.

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tuffix In reply to bookcook [2015-03-21 20:58:02 +0000 UTC]

1.) Teachers with headscarfs do NOT espouse discriminatory, undemocratic and atavistic mindsets.

2.) Teachers withOUT headscarfs do NOT NOT espouse discriminatory, undemocratic and atavistic mindsets.

This argument shows a lack of knowledge (or contact with Muslims) as well as the believe in the illusion that teachers are objective, neutral people.

I am not sure if you ever had the chance to meet an educated Muslim woman but I really hope that you will talk about your prejudices in real life. You will find Muslims very less different then you think we are. You would be so very surprised to see how much we share - in our social and political values as well. I guarantee you.

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bookcook In reply to tuffix [2015-03-22 23:22:30 +0000 UTC]

Unfortuately, I have much more contact with Muslims than I would prefer, both due to my work and the area where I live. Whether it was the young men of Arab and Turkish descent that threatened me with physical violence or with "massacring" my family because I asked them to turn down the music on their cellphones on the bus or for pointing out that it is prohibited to park cars on bike paths. Whether it is the slightly older guys who are so stuck up and so inhibited by their screwed-up sexual morals that they sit in the sauna in their sweaty underpants, and again - of course - get aggressive when you point out them that it is against the rules. (In a recent spat at the sauna, this ended with ice-throwing and - again - violent threats against one of the guest, who was called names such as "gay pig"...) Wether it is these Sharia-police-type of guys who frequently approach our Turkish neighbor on the street with questions like: "Why don´t you wear the scarf, sister? Are you an infidel?" Whether it is the father of one of the students that has the nerve not to shake hands with female teachers anymore "for religious reasons"! How rude can you get?

I probably should also mention the neighborhood schools, that nobody in his right mind will let their children attend, including those immigrants who can afford to move to better neighborhoods. It is not just the fact that a good part of the students has only a passing command of German and the generally low academic level, but also the filthy language and general lack of proper behaviour, that the Muslim students display. Wearing headscarfs aparently does not keep one from dressing as slutty as the dress code that comes with it allows (one word: camel toes!), cake ones face with layers of completely inappropriate make-up and talk in a way that would make sailors blush. I try to avoid passing the school in my neighborhood, when school is out, but when I do, I always wish I had plugs in my ears in order not to hear the (strangely enough always sexually tinged) swearwords: "Isch ficke Deine Mutter", "Fickfehler", "Arschgeburt" etc

It is true that the parents of the kids in our school are typically easy to get along with, but that is to some extent because hot button topics are always carefully avoided. Otherwise it would probably turn out that some of those who seem perfectly normal are among the more than 60 percent of Muslims in Europe that hold fundamentalist religious believes or the around 40 percent who harbor anti-semitic or homophobic sentiments. (Not that we have to talk about the weather a lot, most of them rarely turn up for teacher-parent-conferences or other school activities, or it is only the mothers. I think some of the fathers of the Muslim students have not once entered the school yard.) You might say that these are not particularly educated people and that is right, but given the low social mobility of the immigrants from Turkey and the Arab countries, we do not have so many educate specimen around here. 

By wearing the headscarf you display a visible alliance to this sinister world, so do not be surprised if freedom-loving people who do not want others mess around with their beliefs, morals, sexual orientation etc will avoid you.

As for what teacher espouse by wearing the headscarf:

contempt for democratic values, that decree that people are created equal - not as one of group of people who can present themselves as they like (but preferably unshaven and with sweat pants) and one group of people who cannot show their hair in public and have to wear tent-like dresses.

discriminatory intentions, because once teachers in headdresses will show up in class, it will create even more pressure on the female Muslim students who do not want to wear them ("Why not, if teacher does it, too? Are you a infidel/slut/whore?") And, as an side-effect, it will contribute to the white-flight from public schools, since the more teachers with headscarfs are in the school, the lower its reputation will be and the less the German students will want to attend an institution that has become a visible element of the parallel society

atavism, because this whole ridiculous idea that women by showing their hair arouse sexual desires in men comes straight from the stone age. I see the hair of women all day, without feeling the desire to XXXX them. But even if that was the case, I still don´t understand why it is the job of the women to take precautionary measures, and not of the men to exercise some self-restraint.

I have to say that I feel personally offended by every women who expresses via her headscarf this silly, backwards idea of masculinity towards me, as well as by the attempt to sexualize every aspect of everyday life (followed of course by the attempt to control this all-encompassing sexuality as a way to control the individual).

And apart from all that - I am simply appalled by anything that keeps women from doing all the wonderful things they can do with their hair: let the wind run through it, do some head-banging, braid them or - if your hair is black and straight - comb it in front of your face like Sadako and scare all your mates out of their skulls - to mention but a few of the possibilities you can enjoy when you are not wearing a scarf---

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tuffix In reply to bookcook [2015-03-26 21:42:09 +0000 UTC]

Now I get where all the frustration (and contempt) comes from. So you're a teacher? My deepest condolences. I wouldn't like to change places with you. I grew up in such an area and I know how hard it is to believe in those kids. They were my classmates.

But (!) especially when being a teacher you should be aware of the fact that these conditions are results of socio economic problems instead of religion.

„You might say that these are not particularly educated people and that is right, but given the low social mobility of the immigrants from Turkey and the Arab countries, we do not have so many educate specimen around here.“ Exactly! That's why you need to remind yourself of the reasons instead of leaning back on prejudices.

It's the same with every socially deprived group all over the world: It's always easy to attribute their flaws on their ethnicity, religion or color. Whether it is the Black community in Baltimore or the Roma People in Rome.

An other thing you have to realize: You have no say in why a Muslim woman wears a headscarf. In deciding what a head scarf stands for you take away my right of self-determination.

Instead of asking and pressing politicians to present sustainable solutions against „white-flight from public schools“ your solution is to prohibit intelligent talented democratic woman to contribute to society? You are trying to solve a problem with a problem! You want Muslim women to become emancipated? Then help them by giving them the freedom to study and work whatever they want to!

And all the stuff you write about „sexualization“: It is always so extremely interesting to watch non Muslims complaining about the alleged sexualisiation within the Muslim religion while they never look around and complain about the sexualisation of the society we live in (TVs, Music videos, adverts etc), in the same way.

„keeps women from doing all the wonderful things they can do with their hair“ - haha, you're kidding right?

Look, I can very well imagine that it's tough to be “fair” when you are surrounded by all these frustrating kids and families. I really get that. But then again: It is you job to look behind that. You might find this blog interesting: betuelulusoy.wordpress.com/pag…

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tuffix In reply to lifegirl7 [2015-03-20 22:59:40 +0000 UTC]

Thank you very much for this nice feedback (:

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tuffix In reply to a-map [2015-03-20 22:59:51 +0000 UTC]

:-/

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tuffix In reply to sanjassi [2015-03-20 23:00:01 +0000 UTC]

Thank you (:

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tuffix In reply to Nahmala [2015-03-14 18:45:03 +0000 UTC]

Is the headscarf forbidden for teachers there, too?

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Nahmala In reply to tuffix [2015-03-14 19:17:26 +0000 UTC]

Probably. I was talking about for students. In some regions, schoolgirls are not allowed to wear religious clothing (this applies to some universities, as well) as it should be a "secular nation". Luckily, I've gone around in both hijab and niqab and nobody stopped me here.

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tuffix In reply to BeybladerKingdom [2015-03-14 18:45:48 +0000 UTC]

As I said in the two comments above ( ) They used to argue that teachers need to be "neutral". Hoewever, Christian teachers may wear crosses, we have Christmas trees at Christmas and teachers will never be neutral - they are human beings with subjective word views.

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tuffix In reply to elessal [2015-03-14 10:35:38 +0000 UTC]

They used to argue that teachers need to be "neutral". Hoewever, Christian teachers may wear crosses, we have Christmas trees at Christmas and teachers will never be neutral - they are human beings with subjective word views.

We wear headscarf basically in front of men who don't belong to family. However, there are some Muslim women who also cover in front of non-Muslim women.
I go to hair salons that have special areas for Muslim women or women in General. Many hair dressers have rooms in the back of the shop (;

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elessal In reply to tuffix [2015-03-14 22:16:15 +0000 UTC]

ok. and the hairdreseer can be a man? if not: if he were gay would it be okay?

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tuffix In reply to elessal [2015-03-20 23:02:46 +0000 UTC]

Actually both: not (;

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XxCrowEaterxX In reply to elessal [2015-03-14 07:18:32 +0000 UTC]

We are to cover our hair and body in front of men who are not our family, but we can show our hair and body to other women, but if the women would tell how we look then we don't un-cover in front of those women.
Go to a all women's hair salon. 

I don't know why they put a ban on the headscarf.

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tuffix In reply to The-Psychid [2015-03-14 10:38:22 +0000 UTC]

They used to argue that teachers need to be "neutral". Hoewever, Christian teachers may wear crosses, we have Christmas trees at Christmas and teachers will never be neutral - they are human beings with subjective word views. And that's totally okay.

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