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MakingFunOfStuff — Is she Mary Sue?
Published: 2012-04-16 21:04:16 +0000 UTC; Views: 30873; Favourites: 468; Downloads: 29
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Description                                   Clarifying Mary Sue


So, I realize that everyone has heard of Mary Sue characters, but the thing that bothers me is that Mary has never really been as clarified as she could be. Girls go around crying Mary Sue at every character with long pink hair, then go and create even worse Mary Sue characters in the false illusion that they're making nonMary Sue characters (or even anti-Sues) when in fact they're doing the opposite. Allow me to explain how this seems to happen.

First of all the term "Mary Sue" desperately needs to be clarified to these people, so this brings us to the very important question: What IS a Mary Sue?
At least everyone can agree on one thing. Mary Sues are characters that are so perfect it's annoying.

But. What do they mean by perfect? Everyone has different ideas of that, naturally. Unfortunately, this is how many fanfiction (and other) writers make their biggest mistakes.

When you hear the name Mary Sue what pops up in your mind? A beautiful princess who gets everything she wants, has magical powers and is loved by all the other characters around them? Is that really perfect to you?

Are you sure that in your heart you wouldn't rather be the mysterious emo that everyone else dislikes and is seriously misunderstood or the tough butt-kicking karate girl with short hair? These kind of characters can just as easily be Mary Sues as the girly girl Mary Sues that writers seem to be under the impression are the only ones.


"But my character has faults!" some might point out. Granted, this may be true, but your idea of perfect might in fact include these faults.


A common example of a Mary Sue fault that isn't really a fault is that they get into trouble because they are too caring or too nice to everyone. Well. . . This is an obviously stupid way to go about giving your character faults, BUT it's definitely not the only stupid way. You see, many people only pretend to give their characters "faults" by giving them something supposedly bad that they actually think of positively. Someone who thinks it's cool and funny to be sarcastic might make their Mary Sue character sarcastic, thus making them even closer to their personal definition of perfect.


Heck, if the author thinks shooting a gun off in an orphanage is a good thing and makes their character do it, then their character is STILL a Mary Sue, so long as it's portrayed as good (whatever "good" means. More on that soon).


Why do we hate Mary? While some of the writers might hate her because they hate girly girls in general (and labor under the impression that only girly girl characters are Mary Sues) true authors find her degrading not just because of her (usually) corny looks, background or history. Oh, no. That's the least of the problems with Mary Sue. We hate her, because she can do no wrong.


Mary Sue cannot do anything wrong. Sure, she can trip over a rock if it's funny and cute or maybe even accidentally press a button that blows up a city if it adds to the plot (naively assuming there is a plot). But she can't do anything that makes her a bad person. She cannot do anything morally wrong. At least, (and this is the most disgusting part) what's morally wrong according to the author.


"Ah, so as long as I make Mary do something unchristian she isn't a Mary Sue?"
No. Remember, this is perfect according to you. Even if you use the words "morally wrong" we all know that you're not thinking of it that way. You're not thinking, "This is the part of the story where Mary Sue makes a mistake that the audience knows is wrong and doesn't want her to do!" Give me a break. You're thinking, "This is the part of the story that makes Mary Sue more deep and mysterious and interesting!"


Also, it doesn't help that a lot of people skate over describing Mary Sue as sweaty, smelly, fat or anything like that even when it would be the realistic thing to do. Still, I'm not saying that just because you did use one of those words you're character isn't a Mary Sue either.


Mary can be your own twisted, lame or just plain pathetic idea of perfect.
Everything she does is your type of perfect. Basically reading about a Mary Sue regardless of what person's type of perfect she is feels like reading "BE LIKE ME, BE LIKE ME, BE LIKE ME," which is both tedious and insulting.


Then there are the "self-insert Mary Sues." There is nothing wrong with inserting yourself into a story. However, when people do this, they tend to make themselves seem (admit it) cooler than they really are. This could be by focusing on or emphasizing the (in some cases exaggerated) most interesting things about themself (which sometimes even leads to them getting big-headed and sometimes even believing they're really this mysterious, great person in real life). No wonder the phrases "self-insert" and "Mary Sue" usually go together.
How can you possibly try to portray yourself this way and not get a Mary Sue?


I guess, what I'm really trying to say, is that "perfect" is a very very very broad word to use as a definition for Mary Sue and if that's the definition you're going to use, don't you dare turn a blind eye to your own Mary Sues just because they don't fall in line with someone else's idea of perfect.


It doesn't matter whether they have long, flowing pink hair, special abilities, or who they fall in love with (it doesn't even matter if the author personally believes they ARE perfect). It doesn't matter if they're a tomboy full of flaws either. A Mary Sue is a character who is plainly, mercilessly and unfairly worshiped by the author (directly or indirectly, usually indirectly or even unintentionally so watch out). It's in the portrayal. What could be a Mary Sue in one author's hands could be a perfectly reasonable character in another's.

Real people could take a so-called "Mary Sue test" and score as a Sue. What then? Is the person unrealistic? Perfect? Not at all! How then do so many "self-inserts" get labeled as Sues? Because of how they are PORTRAYED.

How can stereotypical perfect characters in cartoons be bearable? Because the cartoonist is not worshiping them; they are making fun of them.

Mary Sues are not so much characters who are "so perfect that they are annoying" but characters that authors worship. "Perfect" is merely a differing opinion among everyone in the world. So Mary Sues are types of characters *portrayed* as perfect.

One could even go on to say that "perfect" isn't the only thing characters can be unfairly portrayed as. Instead of perfect, maybe evil, mysterious, deep, interesting, random, tough, or funny. It all comes down to how much the author is forcing their opinion on the audience (by doing so, they are either worshiping their character or a view of their character that we may or may not share, in an obnoxious and unfair way).

(I do have to admit at least, it seems that negative opinions are generally more tolerable than positive ones. Everyone loves to hate, but nobody likes a goody two-shoes, and calling a character out every so often can be good for a story).

One could go even FURTHER to say that not only characters can be unfairly portrayed, but THINGS in your story as well. Emotions, objects, lyrics, perhaps even the plot... The list is quite infinite.

One way to avoid doing this is to show and not tell (not even show AND tell. Worry about showing). Be fair. It's almost as simple as that: keep your opinions out of it.

While super-strong, beautiful, all-holy princesses can be corny and obnoxious that's not always the stuff Sues are made of and certainly not the only.


FALSE IDEAS OF MARY SUE:

Many people who claim they hate "Mary Sues" actually just hate girly girls. Most of these people tend to be girls themselves, who are bitter at the stereotype and mistake it for Mary Sue or vice versa.

Others mistakenly believe that Mary Sues are girls who don't fight for themselves or rely on men. Regardless of whether that's stupid or not, it's NOT what Mary Sue means. One of these characters wouldn't be a Sue if the author portrayed them as an idiot. They would be however, if you were supposed to look up to them.

Yes, that's right: stereotype Sues made to make fun of Sues are contradictions, for Sues never make fun of themselves.
Also, Sues are not "characters who are underdeveloped." That is simply a bad character. Underdevelopment and Mary Sue characters, while they tend to go hand in hand, are not the same thing, and the absence of one doesn't necessarily mean the absence of the other.

When all is said and done, perhaps what we need to realize is that Mary Sue isn't a type of character, but a type of attitude.




Oh, and you know all of that goes for Gary Stus too, even though I used Mary Sue as the example instead of the less heard of male-version, right?
Related content
Comments: 353

Blaria95-love-bunny [2022-07-18 12:45:54 +0000 UTC]

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Blaria95-love-bunny [2022-06-22 00:48:40 +0000 UTC]

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vipus66 [2020-05-24 01:40:13 +0000 UTC]

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Silversoulgirl34 [2019-09-26 22:01:51 +0000 UTC]

My oc use to be a mary sue
No personality
Super nice
Has every power
Can't die
Both parents died with a super tragic past
But then I realized it when I got older that was dumb

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TGFan55 [2018-07-01 15:54:07 +0000 UTC]

Another way of putting it, is that a "perfect character with OP abilities and she's so pretty and everyone likes her OMG" isn't a Mary-Sue. It's certainly an embarrassing excuse for a character, but not a Mary-Sue.


A Mary-Sue is a character who has the entire story contort itself into a singularity around the Sue. A "Suengularity", if you will (I'm totally trademarking that btw).


If we take just the first example, does that mean Superman is a Mary Sue? He's nigh-invulnerable, but it's not like the entire DC universe bends over backwards to him (except under Frank Miller & Zack Snyder, but that's for another day).


Whereas with the 2nd example, we get a clearer understanding of who can fall under the term. Infamous characters such as Bella Swan or Kirito pop up here.


Just wanted to add my thoughts to this. This is legitimately the most informative look at Mary-Sues I've seen! Keep up the good work!

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MakingFunOfStuff In reply to TGFan55 [2018-07-01 17:52:29 +0000 UTC]

Thank you! That is an insightful comment.
"Suengularity" is the best term I've ever heard.

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Alylui [2017-04-06 21:03:03 +0000 UTC]

Being too nice can be a weakness if taken too far, for example, there could be a character so nice that he/she is a pushover and therefore very easily taken advantage over.

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DessinerEr [2017-02-26 01:34:12 +0000 UTC]

Nice text, but this word Mary Sue really I find so... Stranger, because not have a crucial point to call it or meaning. 

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Ravenchi [2017-01-22 15:16:03 +0000 UTC]

I really like your guide. I love reading OCs or self-insert stories as well as twisted side fanfictions. I never got around finishing one of my fanfictions but I'm trying to pick up the pen again with your different guides in mind. Thank you.

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Queen-of-Ice101 [2016-08-03 21:25:17 +0000 UTC]

I really love this. To me I can excuse a Mary Sue-like character if it's the first fanfic/story because that's just inexperience. But once they have like fifty Mary-Sue's then it becomes aggravating. 
On a slightly unrelated note I think I sign of a good writer is being able to look through old stories and recognize Mary Sue-like characters. 

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R4DIO-HAZARD [2016-07-16 02:13:48 +0000 UTC]

I remember in 2013 I was going to name to a character of mine "Mary Sue" without have idea of what a Mary Sue character is. And the most ironic is that my character was not a Mary Sue.
C R I N G E W O R T H Y

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Madame-Gin [2016-06-11 01:24:34 +0000 UTC]

Great, great post!

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CaptainCassey01 [2016-06-06 14:48:21 +0000 UTC]

Someone inserted themselves in the story and I admit they're cooler than the main character ;w;

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mmpratt99 [2016-05-08 01:44:54 +0000 UTC]

I made my character less of a Sue type due to my mom complaining about her self-obsessed, Amazon Warrior lifestyle so I gave her an annoying kid brother and fashion-absorbed sister.


Mom and Dad> fav.me/d39jl6q

kid brother>fav.me/d37qx7m

ornery sister>fav.me/d3aukcn

So now she's trying to be more sociable and 'normal, despite being an introvert.

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9fanforever9909 [2016-04-28 19:55:32 +0000 UTC]

I was recently told in a nice way that my OC is a Mary Sue. MY OC IS NOT PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!! DOES IT EVEN MATTER!!!!!!!!!!! I'M THE CREATOR!!!!!!!!!

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MakingFunOfStuff In reply to 9fanforever9909 [2016-04-28 22:58:44 +0000 UTC]

No, it doesn't matter. Perfect characters are fine. 

Mary Sues are characters that warp characters/things around them to compliment an unfair image. Just because the image is usually "perfect" doesn't mean having a perfect character is bad in itself. Look at the episode of SpongeBob that he was "normal" (perfect). It was funny instead of unfair, so nobody minded.

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QueenObscurePairings [2016-01-19 01:26:52 +0000 UTC]

Also, beauty can be a flaw, and danger to a said heroin/hero too..If you think about it.
Look all pretty men/women in our world, they go missing, raped, killed for their beauty. When when people make oc, using that as a flaw..it can work. I am tossing that out there since that is an over used..claimed to be sue trait.
But if done right that is great flaw.

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TongueTwister [2015-12-28 03:41:27 +0000 UTC]

thank god you wrote this

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drakvl [2015-10-11 06:03:40 +0000 UTC]

I would also like to point out that self-insertions are not necessarily Mary Sues.

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Theallpowerfuldoge [2015-10-06 02:01:08 +0000 UTC]

My cousin has a very Mary Sue oc I try to help her to make her character better but she said she doesn't want her oc to be like mine because she wants hers to be perfect 

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poptropigirl In reply to Theallpowerfuldoge [2015-11-27 18:58:29 +0000 UTC]

Is she younger? If not, is the OC a backup character that is made fun of? For example, a totally perfect person in a cartoon or story that is hated by the main character and made fun of.

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ThatDumbKitty In reply to poptropigirl [2016-09-07 02:32:36 +0000 UTC]

I'm one of this person's cousin's and our cousin is 15 now and wants a dick... She made a My Little Pony Oc that is also in Steven Universe,FNAF,and Undertale. We told her to change it up a bit and tell her to stop shipping every main character with her character named Kawaii Ai Gurinu Yuki Mata Desu ne Gomen Baka Kitsune Neko Chan... You tell me if this is a Mary Sue or not.

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ambeddo [2015-09-24 01:25:57 +0000 UTC]

In reading a lot of reader inserts, I've noticed a trend that (I guess?) counts as being a Mary Sue.

Most "x reader" fanfics are female x male pairings, with the reader being female.

In order to appeal to the audience and to clumsily paste it all together into what they see as ideal, fanfiction authors will often make the reader a chick version of the male (especially in Levi x reader stories - it bugs me to no end). As I've had to learn, in order to write decent fanfiction, you must first forget all about those fantasies. In real life, chances are you will not fall for a person who's an exact copy of you - otherwise it'd be pretty dull, right? You also have to first take the character's nature into account - would they really be attracted to that? There can be multiple personalities for readers, sure. After all, the character is merely fictional - you've no way of talking to them, let alone get to personally know them. And it varies on the character. But I dunno, I just feel like that's a less-noticed type of Mary Sue.

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poptropigirl In reply to ambeddo [2015-11-27 18:59:55 +0000 UTC]

Like Barbie and Ken? I remember when I was younger hating them so much XD

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sarin555 [2015-09-23 15:15:02 +0000 UTC]

1. What is the best way to make overpowered character not Mary Sue?

2.How can I portray Mary Sue as comedy, but not as main character?

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MakingFunOfStuff In reply to sarin555 [2015-09-25 06:00:49 +0000 UTC]

Interesting questions. 
Think of the episode of SpongeBob when he turns perfect (normal). He is perfect in a sarcastic way. It feels like the authors are on our side; we are not told to respect him more than others because he is "perfect." Try to avoid setting up a biased tone for respect. I believe if a character has something about them that is worth respecting, it is more powerful if not pointed out. And if it's made fun of, that is yet another thing. However, the one thing that will always make you look like a fool is if you expect your readers to take you overly seriously.
Hope that's helpful.

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awesomestarz [2015-09-21 23:52:53 +0000 UTC]

I have a friend that got me into Soul Eater. But she has a very Mary Sue OC. Her name was Sue, at first I found her harmless, but then I got to finding her annoying.

First, she's already gotten a head start on the souls needed to become a death scythe (fifty out of the 99), and has a stronger wavelength because of her parents (her dad is a death scythe). My friend also made her "perfectly symmetrical" so she could pair her up with Death the Kid.

And out of the blue, she also said that she wanted to make her part shinigami (beyond dangerous mary-sue territory).

It concerns me because she's old enough to know better, but I also didn't want to hurt her feelings.

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poptropigirl In reply to awesomestarz [2015-11-27 19:03:16 +0000 UTC]

In my opinion, I think you should give her constructive criticism. Don't break the news to her in a mean way; tell her: "I think Sue is a bit too perfect." instead of directly saying Mary Sue. She'll probably understand what you're saying but not be too offended.

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popaandreea [2015-09-19 10:55:04 +0000 UTC]

if there would have been a 'mary sue contest',alexis rhodes from 'yugioh gx' would definitely won the 1st place.
just think about it : she's not only the prettiest girl in school,but she's a also the best female duelist and the smartest girl in school,every male character has a crush on her,she rarely ever loses,she has an unrealistically perfect body (big breasts,small waist,nice curves - this is the figure the every mary sue has) and all of her duel monsters are pretty cyber females with revealing outfits,humanoid appearance and big breasts (ex : etoile cyber,cyber blader,cyber prima,blade skater,cyber tutu,etc)

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poptropigirl In reply to popaandreea [2015-11-27 19:04:08 +0000 UTC]

I think she would tie with Barbie. They have the exact same traits.

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popaandreea In reply to poptropigirl [2015-11-28 19:02:06 +0000 UTC]

god! finally someone who understands.
surely,alexis hates the fact she is portrayed is the pretty one and she wants to be considered as though as the boys,but it doesn't that she constantly acts like a total bitch towards everyone.

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poptropigirl In reply to popaandreea [2015-11-28 19:06:10 +0000 UTC]

Exactly!

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mmpratt99 [2015-04-08 21:32:52 +0000 UTC]

When I portray 'Special' characters in my stories, they're not ideal, beautiful princess types, they have some mental, obsessed beyond healthy levels with anime/fanfic problem.

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WolfMajesty11 [2015-02-28 02:21:25 +0000 UTC]

Brilliant. I agree with this so much. I cannot stand cliches, and when I join a roleplay that is later joined by a Mary Sue it makes it so difficult for me; it's just kind of a mental block. You can't compete with a Mary Sue! And it so destroys the rhythm of a good story. How can there be a lovable jokester, a calm, capable leader, a difficult, sad-past kid, when somebody has all three, and more loved stereotypes, in one character? Great StarClan!

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vipus66 In reply to WolfMajesty11 [2020-05-24 01:50:48 +0000 UTC]

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JakeLeeGT [2015-02-12 21:59:31 +0000 UTC]

You deserve a prize for this text.
Your writing skills are impressive.

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LoZGamer316 [2015-01-12 07:24:43 +0000 UTC]

Someone made a SNK OC named Veena Civiliana (I think I botched the last name) I'd say she's a Mary Sue after reading this and looking at her stats. I do think her physical appearance looks kinda cool though. cherrypikkens' Just Be fic was wonderful and didn't portray the reader as someone "stronger than Reiner, kinder than Christa and Marco, more skilled than Mikasa, and more". It also made me cry... A lot

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TongueTwister In reply to LoZGamer316 [2015-12-29 01:43:06 +0000 UTC]

she isnt a mary sue she's just overpowered oc 

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Metaknighta [2015-01-04 16:33:44 +0000 UTC]

So, a Mary-Sue character is a basicly just one of these ''super-mega-strong-sexy'' OC Girls?

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MakingFunOfStuff In reply to Metaknighta [2015-01-07 20:46:11 +0000 UTC]

Well, it could be, but there are lots of different types.

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LaDeary [2014-12-17 02:14:29 +0000 UTC]

Bravo. I shall strive for improvement, thank you.

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SDA-MessengersOracle [2014-04-02 05:41:43 +0000 UTC]

So in summary, what I'm gathering from this and from some comments below, is that "perfect" characters, whether Mary or Gary, are those that have no need to grow/change, are always right in whatever circumstance, and are based off the personal motive of the author to promote the author's agenda. Is that about right?

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EdenEvergreen [2014-02-02 07:29:32 +0000 UTC]

Hmm, I usually heard the male version of "Mary Sue" called "Marty Stu" ... but either way, the same principles apply. That rose, by any other name, still has thorns!

One way that "Mary Sue" types always stand out to me is if they steal the spotlight on a constant basis.

Yes, the main character (if there is one) should get more attention than the minors. However, a balance is still needful. Every character should get a little time in the spotlight, even if it's only a short turn.

The spotlight thing is usually what separates readable fan-fiction (you know, the type that actually has a plot and keeps all of the canon characters mostly "in character") from vapid nonsense.

Also, as you mentioned, the "show don't tell" part is crucial. Show the characters to the audience, and let them think what they will.

I saw a forum signature you might also appreciate: "I am willing to suspend my disbelief, but not hang it by the neck until dead."

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xCharminglyCrimsonx In reply to EdenEvergreen [2015-06-28 11:31:56 +0000 UTC]

I call them Gary Stus xD

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LoZGamer316 In reply to EdenEvergreen [2015-01-12 07:25:53 +0000 UTC]

Pfft... Marty Stu? I think I laughed a little too hard at that

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MakingFunOfStuff In reply to EdenEvergreen [2014-03-11 16:03:40 +0000 UTC]

Thanks for the comment.
Haha, that's a great quote.

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therebeunicorns [2013-11-15 22:05:51 +0000 UTC]

[Wall of text warning!]
I really enjoy reading your essays. They're short, simple and make their points well.

I believe that Mary Sue is a character that the *author* thinks is so perfect that the character does not have to do anything but show how perfect they are for the entire story. The character does not need to change--- because she's perfect! She doesn't need to grow--- because she's perfect! The same can apply to characters that are purposefully given so many flaws it's unbelievable, such as the depressed emo. The emo does not have to overcome any of her faults! She's totally awesome being her depressed, lonely self throughout the *whole* story!  This Sue-author will beat me over the head with her precious character until I 'get' how perfect she is, even if she isn't perfect but flawed. This author treats her flaws/struggles as endearing qualities and doesn't let me form my own opinion. Thus something that is supposed to be a flaw or challenge the character becomes something the author thinks is (or portrays as) a positive point. Like you said so well here:

"You see, many people only pretend to give their characters "faults" by giving them something supposedly bad that they actually think of positively."

When I see a Mary Sue of course I start to dislike the story. Not because of the Mary Sue. But because of the story itself. The story does nothing for me. It doesn't go anywhere. I'm stuck in a loop of perfection with a character I don't like--- I don't like perfect characters, and I don't like perfection either.

"(naively assuming there is a plot)"

There is rarely, if ever, a plot in a Mary Sue story. The author thinks that once their OC is done, 99% of the work is done. XD Yeah, because coming up with a plot takes only 1% effort....lol, NOT.

There is one point you made I'd disagree with, unless I am totally misunderstanding you, and that is this line:

"One way to avoid doing this is to show and not tell (not even show AND tell. Worry about showing). Be fair. It's almost as simple as that: keep your opinions out of it."

I agree with keeping my opinions out of it, but if I only did showing in my original novel, it would be a million pages long. In order to keep pace while I'm writing my novel, I have to do both showing and telling. I show the things that are important, the things that add to character or plot, and sometimes I even show things like setting when I feel it plays an important role.

But there are many occasions when I find it most appropriate to tell instead of show. Let's say my character needs to run down the street to the house on the end. The running down the street is not all that important, it's what happens when she gets to that house that is important. Now, I could pointlessly describe every step she takes and what she feels while she's running, or I could sum it up in one sentence: "She ran down the street to the house on the corner." (which is telling) and save the showing for more important moments in the story.

A better example would be that I could easily get away with (or even prefer) 'telling' what happened to a character during her day rather than showing it all when it wasn't important (aka summarizing):

"I spent most of the day at school slumped over my journal and doodling. On the way home, I stopped and got a coffee.

When I came to the front door of my apartment, I noticed it was open just a crack. Heart fluttering, I just stood there staring. It was dark inside there, and the first thing that came to mind was not Oh my God! but Did any snow get on the carpet? I don't want any mold!"

Ahem. Maybe not the best sample of my writing ability ;_: but I kind of forced it out just for this comment, lol. As you can see, the first two sentences are 'telling' or 'summarizing' what happened during her boring day, while the next sentences go back to 'showing' or 'being in the moment' because something interesting has come up.

Err...now that I've written that wall of text I'm wondering if I misunderstood you. Maybe you were referring to only doing showing when it comes to portraying to the main character? If that's the case, I agree with you. My main character did not introduce herself by stating her personality. The first chapter shows her personality in what she does and thinks. There's a bit of telling in the second chapter, where she simply mentions that she is diagnosed with a disorder. But it is done as a part of a longer introspection that, with her constant worry and doubt, only proves that she does indeed have this disorder. The small bit of telling was done to make a point.

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yelinna [2013-10-10 03:56:37 +0000 UTC]

I think that famous anime characters like Utena (Revolution Girl Utena) or Ash (Pokemon) are Maries and Garies. You can feel the creator behind, trying hard to make them their idea of perfection.

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scourge728 In reply to yelinna [2013-11-27 02:02:31 +0000 UTC]

no no no

ash is just a lucky idiot

RED is the Gary stu

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Zvarika1 In reply to scourge728 [2014-12-28 01:23:35 +0000 UTC]

You've got a point there.

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